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Topic: OT: Did The Historical Jesus Exist? Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 09 September 2017 at 8:55am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

This is an interesting, if brief, article:


I have read a lot about both Christianity and the 'historical Jesus'. I don't mean to sound cocky, but I feel I know more about Christianity than *some* Christians (one I chatted to years ago, at work, knew the basics such as Noah's Ark, but not as much as I seemed to know). I promise I don't mean to presume that I have superior knowledge.

For instance, I read about Marcionites once (early Christians who believed the OT and NT 'gods' were different beings). I have also read many details about myths that predate the Bible. I did come away thinking that there was little, if anything, original in Christianity. From flood myths and virgin births to resurrections, there were pre-Christian myths that had such figures.

I'm no expert on the historical Jesus. But I'm inclined to believe he's a mishmash, if that is the word, of other figures. Perhaps akin to Robin Hood and William Tell. Was there a single figure called Robin Hood? Or William Tell? Perhaps not. Maybe the same could be said for Jesus. 

The most bizarre analogy someone online ever gave me was that we know Jesus existed because the Bible said so. He stated that Benjamin Franklin didn't try and prove his own existence when he wrote an autobiography - so we could say the same about Jesus/the Bible. That's a bizarre leap, given there are MANY facts outside Franklin's autobiography that show us he was a real person.

I'm open to many things, but I'm not sure Jesus, the lone figure, existed. The name existed. And there may well have been spiritual teachers back then, but one person who rose from the dead? I doubt it.


Edited by Robbie Parry on 09 September 2017 at 8:56am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 09 September 2017 at 9:11am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

I'd say no. There are no contemporary references (even the Bible wasn't written until half a century after the "facts"), and the first non-Biblical references (two letters from the last decade of the First Century CE) refer to the new cult of Christianity as worshipping Jesus, but are not specific references to Jesus himself.

There is also the problem that the supposed life of Jesus is peppered with "historical events" that did not happen, such as the census at the time of his birth, and the "traditional" freeing of a prisoner at the time of his death.

Even if we strip away all the supernatural elements, we are still left with a story with very few, if any, reliable threads.

My best guess is that Jesus was like Robin Hood. His story is a confabulation of the "good parts" of the lives of several different men, over a long period of time.

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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 09 September 2017 at 9:17am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

True.

It does become tedious when some Christians forever answer with, "The Bible says so..." as 'evidence' of Jesus.

There's a BBC religious debate show called THE BIG QUESTIONS. A few years ago, a Christian was invited on. Presenter Nicky Campbell asked the guy if he believed Adam and Eve existed - and whether their exploits were true. The man replied, "Jesus believed it happened, so do I."

Imagine that logic elsewhere. 


Edited by Robbie Parry on 09 September 2017 at 9:18am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 09 September 2017 at 9:40am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

A year or so ago I resisted the urge to buy a window sticker for my car. It read "RELIGION -- Because Thinking is So Hard". I decided I didn't want my window smashed, and so settled for "THINK -- It's Not Illegal Yet".

The great crime of religions is that they relieve their adherents of the need to think. "Jesus said it, I believe it, that finishes it." Yet the great majority of people who would be inclined to say that do not realize Jesus neither wrote nor spoke any part of the Bible. The book was written -- and distilled -- decades later by men with their own agendas.

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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 09 September 2017 at 9:57am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

From a Jewish perspective, I am minded to believe that there certainly could have been a prophet named Jesus. I don't believe he was the son of God. (I'd have put "that goes without saying", but apparently, Jews for Jesus is still going strong out there.)

I'm not a scholar on what Jesus did to prove he was the son of God, but I know that events can be rigged by the team promoting their agenda. I know that a lot of men were very wise and very good without being divine. And as to one "miracle" - it's the punchline of a joke. "You just gotta know where the shallow spots are."

At this late date, I don't think there is any way to scientifically or historically establish occurrences of miracles, let alone who performed them. Written records are easy to forge; so I would want a multiplicity of sources verifying events. And in the case of Christianity, a movement that was so big and so puissant, a lot of Big Brotherism could occur.

I mean, for all we know, the man known as Jesus might just have been a figurehead, a puppet leader of a group trying to enforce their revolution against Rome by way of inexplicable events - "It's a miracle! Jesus did it! Come and worship the TRUE son of the lord!"

Even to the point of the resurrection... this guy might have been incredibly lucky in that he died from being crucified (well, okay, THAT'S not so lucky...) and then being treated by a cleric who was able to keep him stable, and eventually restore him to consciousness and coherence after a couple of close days. I imagine that's a somewhat expected occurrence in a lot of hospitals these days.

My cynicism and skepticism forces me to say that no, there was no specific Jesus of Nazareth who performed real miracles and came back from the dead.
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 09 September 2017 at 10:17am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

 "Jesus said it, I believe it, that finishes it." 

***

This is what that Christian said on THE BIG QUESTIONS. There was no desire from him to explore the evolutionary proof (none that any exists, I'm sure) of Adam/Eve. Or to ask who Cain's wife was? No, it was, "Jesus said it, I follow his teachings - so it's true."

It's all bizarre, anyway. On another edition of THE BIG QUESTIONS, someone was claiming Jesus is from Venus, based on some biblical passage. It really does sound like people interpret things to suit their own agenda.
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Paul Kimball
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Posted: 09 September 2017 at 10:22am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

I have told my friends who are believers that I'm open to believing but I need
some sort of evidence or reason. The most I've ever gotten is "look around
you, how else could the world have been created." My response has been that
even if I accepted that as proof, tell me why I would believe in Jesus over RA or
Zeus. We're still friends but I've never gotten a response other than a playful
"shut up!"
I suspect Jesus is a conglomeration of some real life good people along with
some fictions that got added, but who knows.
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 09 September 2017 at 10:36am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

The church at which my family attends had a sermon a couple months back on whether or not the Bible was true. The very first point of evidence the pastor provided was it's true because it says it's true. 

Really. 
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Robert Shepherd
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Posted: 09 September 2017 at 10:56am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

I don't study Christianity but the more I learn, the more it seems clear that Christianity is "just" a religion, like any other. Meaning it's a man-made set of beliefs and not some divine guidance. I firmly believe all religions were created to manipulate the masses. To my mind, it's mass brainwashing. History has proven time and again how easily the masses can be brainwashed.

"The Bible is proof" as a response has always set me off. How could people believe that? People CHOOSE what they want to believe.

I'm not saying religion is bad. Most religions mean well. most religions offer lessons of wisdom. Strength of community. Stuff like that. Ah....but for a tithing, eh?

I'm not against people believing. I have friends who are stronger because of their faith. I've tried to tell them they should give themselves credit for their strength and maybe it is not so divine after all. Or, maybe man is divine. Their typical response is "I'm not that strong". ok.

For me, I would gladly believe in the divine if there was real proof. Still waiting on that one.



Edited by Robert Shepherd on 09 September 2017 at 10:58am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 09 September 2017 at 11:13am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

One of the things that make me really sad in life is those occasions when I have been confronted by believers asking if I, as an atheist, am "calling Jesus Christ a liar." Normally I resist the urge to say "Yes," since Jesus, as portrayed in the Bible, was a false prophet. I settle instead for pointing out yet again that Jesus did not write the Bible, and none of the men who did ever met him.
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Petter Myhr Ness
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Posted: 09 September 2017 at 11:14am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

There might very well be a historical Jesus who served as some kind of prophet during that period, and whose quotes can be found in the gospels - official as well as unofficial. But the Jesus described in the Bible is surely as fictitious as Moses. 
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 09 September 2017 at 11:16am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Are you sure, Petter? I thought Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible (including, bizarrely, the one that commented on his death). 
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