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John Byrne
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Posted: 27 July 2017 at 10:14am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Will there ever come a day when there will be no more "speculation" about the Confederacy winning the Civil War? In term of historical absurdity, one might as well ask "What if Native Americans had colonized Europe?" or "What if the Jews had beaten the Nazis?"

(For the microbrains who might be reading this, these are comparisons of degrees of absurdity, not a suggestion that the events themselves were in any way similar.)

To get to the point where we have a Confederate Nation, as in this new HBO series, history must be rewritten so extensively that the speculation becomes meaningless in the extreme. Might as well be GAME OF REBS. (At least then they could have dragons.)

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Michael Penn
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Posted: 27 July 2017 at 10:34am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

My only reaction to any Reb-winning thing is a big fat f*cking NO.

It's so meaningless, as JB states, that for me this can't possibly be entertaining on any level.

I also think it's socially and culturally deleterious because, even unintended, it perpetuates the Lost Cause myth.

"I think that the North fought that war with one hand behind its back. At the same time the war was going on, the Homestead Act was being passed, all these marvelous inventions were going on. In the spring of 1864, the Harvard-Yale boat races were going on and not a man in either crew volunteered for the army or the navy. They didn't need them. I think that if there had been more Southern successes, and a lot more, the North simply would have brought that other arm out from behind its back. I don't think the South ever had a chance to win that war." 
-- Shelby Foote
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Brian Rhodes
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Posted: 27 July 2017 at 12:09pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 27 July 2017 at 1:13pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Not only do I find the premise beyond fantastic, but if some miracle had occurred to effect this, I cannot imagine that the Union and Confederacy would not have reunited at an early opportunity.

I'm a big ol' fan of speculative fiction (hey, I'm a comic book fanboy, amn't I?) I can put aside a lot of premises to enjoy a story. But the best stuff is what I look at and say, "Ah, yes, one little change and THIS could have been reality!"

"CONFEDERATE" ain't in that class.
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David Allen Perrin
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Posted: 27 July 2017 at 3:49pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

This was done before and nobody freaked out then.



Spike Lee produced a faux documentary about this exact subject a few years ago.  I watched it and it hits some hard points. 

I'm really getting tired of people telling me to hate this show before it even airs.   Well...IF it airs.   Not a single episode has been written....but folks are talking boycotting HBO.

Seems to me that we are living a lot of this reality right now.  The KKK has an office in the White House right damn now as far as i'm concerned.  

The DB's from GOT are the show runners...but the writers and executive producers are black and they say the have something of value to share and it isn't glorifying White Supremacy.  

So color me 'curious'.


Edited by David Allen Perrin on 27 July 2017 at 3:50pm
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 27 July 2017 at 6:06pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Harry Turtledove has a series of alternate history books dedicated to this very premise. I enjoyed them immensely.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 27 July 2017 at 6:47pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Spike Lee produced a faux documentary about this exact subject a few years ago. I watched it and it hits some hard points.

••

Hard points based on a false premise.

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David Allen Perrin
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Posted: 27 July 2017 at 6:53pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Has anyone posting here seen CSA?
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John Byrne
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Posted: 27 July 2017 at 7:07pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Has anyone posting here seen CSA?

••

I did. Spent a lot of time shaking my head and rolling my eyes.

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Stephen Churay
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Posted: 27 July 2017 at 7:41pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

The show runners made mention of using the show as a
platform to examine race issues.

Personally, any good they think it would do can only
preach to their respective choirs. Rational people don't
need to be taught about racist scumbags. Racist scumbags
won't get it and only see a wonderful world.

Again, just because you CAN tell a story, doesn't mean
you SHOULD tell that story.
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David Allen Perrin
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Posted: 28 July 2017 at 9:07am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

"Rational people don't 
need to be taught about racist scumbags. "

That's debatable.   Plenty of rational people who profess to disliking racist scumbags often don't recognize when they are being racist.



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John Byrne
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Posted: 28 July 2017 at 9:24am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

"Racist" is such a broad term. I've been called racist for daring to suggest characters (ALL characters) should not have their races changed when being translated into another media.

Oddly, I have not heard the people who do the changing called racist. And yet...

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David Allen Perrin
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Posted: 28 July 2017 at 2:04pm | IP Logged | 13 post reply

I just don’t find the premise absurd given the climate of today.  We are already mired in a Cold Civil War.  It’s basically very wealthy white men vs. everybody else.  They are spending crazy amounts of money to fight the war in the media (by owning almost all the news you see) and in the voting booth (by owning nearly all the politicians you see).    
And on occasion the war gets hot when police get away with killing or brutalizing unarmed civilians.   And there’s no need to flip the script on this issue.  If a civilian kills a cop it’s a crime (unless you have the ability to prove otherwise).  And the law will open up a can of American whoop ass to prove you wrong.  It doesn’t really work the other way around.  The last few years of high profile killings by police with no convictions proves it.  

Anybody see the NRA ad with Dana Loesch?  Watch it and tell me if THAT couldn’t be run as a promo for ‘Confederate’.


What bugs me is this idea that the premise of this show is somehow beneath us.  That it goes too far.  Which is bullshit.  If you saw the NRA ad that pretty much openly calls for Civil War TODAY….it’s pretty clear that In a great many ways, America is living ‘Confederate’ right now.  And we are on a glide path to seeing it through even more.  Voting rights that people fought and died for are being taken away all the time.  Women’s rights are being attacked constantly.  An entire political party risked the well being of the entire nation to discredit the first black President.  Denying the show seems hypocritical. Stomping our feet and demanding that ‘Confederate’ NOT happen is like burying our heads in the sand to the truth.  The story is already real.





Edited by David Allen Perrin on 28 July 2017 at 3:40pm
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David Miller
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Posted: 28 July 2017 at 2:33pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

People who change character races get called racist pretty much every time it comes up. It's in the second row on the Internet Race Discussion Bingo card between claiming a black best friend and pointing out Democrats were the party of slavery. 
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David Allen Perrin
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Posted: 28 July 2017 at 3:13pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

Don't forget "Chicago!"  That's always a popular response.
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David Miller
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Posted: 28 July 2017 at 3:35pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

"The so-called 'n-word'."
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John Byrne
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Posted: 28 July 2017 at 4:22pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

People who change character races get called racist pretty much every time it comes up.

••

Your experiences must be MUCH more broad than mine!

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Wallace Sellars
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Posted: 28 July 2017 at 5:41pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

People who change character races get called racist pretty much every time it
comes up.

••

Your experiences must be MUCH more broad than mine!

••

I have heard and seen people who disagree with race swapping called racist,
but never the ones who do the swapping. In fact, they are often praised! (Even
when the characters from THE LAST AIRBENDER ended up looking nothing like
they should, "racist" was not a word I read when angry people described the
casting. It's possible I missed it though.)
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 28 July 2017 at 6:02pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

In fact, they are often praised! (Even  when the characters from THE LAST AIRBENDER ended up looking nothing like they should, "racist" was not a word I read when angry people described the  casting. It's possible I missed it though.)

-----

Perhaps not that particular word, but the Racebending website that arose out of THE LAST AIRBENDER casting controversy and took the lead in that conversation did not hold back in accusing Hollywood of discriminatory casting practices. 
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David Miller
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Posted: 28 July 2017 at 6:53pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply


 QUOTE:
Your experiences must be MUCH more broad than mine!

Possibly. I'm leathery and weathered well beyond my two score and four years, but it's more likely just one of the many downsides of participating in non-Robotics social media. 

Here are some relevant links:
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Adam Schulman
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Posted: 29 July 2017 at 1:33pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

I wish I could believe if we all just didn't watch this -- and I sure ain't watching it -- these sorts of series would just go away...but I know better. And it depresses me. 
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