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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 25 July 2017 at 12:21pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

I fall in-between.  I don't think the series is all about redemption, but neither do I think there is not a single character trying to redeem themselves.  Theon is a perfect example and not the only one.  Is it the main theme?  No.  I think Daenerys understands that her father was really and truly mad given she saw those traits passed down to her brother, so I don't think she's "redeeming" the Targaryen name so much as she's after what she thinks was stolen from her, redemption be damned.
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My take on it is that the story is really about the quest for honor and balance in a brutal world which contains no absolutes. All of the characters have reasons of varying validity for doing what they do. 

Daenerys' personal arc seems to be learning about what makes for a good a just ruler through trial and error. Her story seems more about the journey than the destination. She's doggedly pursued her goal from the start, but the lessons she's learned along the way may end up being more important than the throne she seeks

And, it should be noted that, thanks to generations of inbreeding, there's still a chance she may go insane, years down the line, just as her father did. 

Edited by Greg Kirkman on 25 July 2017 at 3:56pm
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 25 July 2017 at 4:00pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

By the way--and I know I'm new to this, and know nothing of GoT spoilers or fan theories--but I kinda think that Daenerys is a red herring. Now that Jon Snow has been revealed as a Targaryen, he has a claim to the throne, after all.

And, while Daenerys has spent the entire series learning how to be a woman of the people and a leader, Jon has spent the entire series BEING a man of the people and a leader. He's learned about love, loyalty, honor, and war. He very much fits the archetype of the reluctant hero who comes from humble beginnings. King Arthur and the sword in the stone, that sort of thing. He's also the purest example of a hero that the show has.

My hunch is that he comes out on top. We'll see!
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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 25 July 2017 at 11:38pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Or Dany and Jon Snow could wind up as king and queen together keeping the ole incestuous tradition of pure Targaryen bloodlines going.
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 26 July 2017 at 1:10am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

 Greg Kirkman wrote:
Daenerys' personal arc seems to be learning about what makes for a good a just ruler through trial and error. Her story seems more about the journey than the destination. She's doggedly pursued her goal from the start, but the lessons she's learned along the way may end up being more important than the throne she seeks

That may be how she looks upon her life when she's 60 (if she gets to be that old in this time), but that's decidedly not how she views herself now.  She's not thinking "journey rather than destination" but single-mindedly Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.  That's the lens through which we have to look at her story. She's got a very specific purpose and determination.  She's not trying to be redeemed.  She knows her father was mad and her brother as well.  But she does feel that the throne was stolen from her and she's hell-bent on getting it back.  I think learning about being a good ruler as opposed to being a reckless one comes from the long arc it's taken to get her to Westeros and those she's met on her journey.
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 26 July 2017 at 1:17am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

 Greg Kirkman wrote:
My hunch is that he comes out on top. We'll see!

Disagree.  I think that they find a way to rule together.  That the Seven Kingdoms won't be the same after this war.  Yes, when Dani said that Jon would have to kneel before her in this latest episode, I know that he never will.  That's the impulsive Dani, the one that requires all to bend before her.  But each has something to offer and I don't think one will be in a position of power to lord it over the other.  For arguments sake, I'd say that Martin is on the side of female protagonists so it wouldn't shock me at all to see Daenerys come out on top.  But I really don't see a scenario where Jon Snow, the reluctant king, rules the entire Seven Kingdoms on his own. 

I also think he will have a price to pay for being risen from the dead. It's been hinted at in the series and is certainly a part of fan speculation.   Personally, I think his reincarnation was for a certain purpose and once that's fulfilled, he may not survive what follows. 
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Bill Collins
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Posted: 26 July 2017 at 7:24am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Maybe he`ll kneel before her to propose marriage?
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 26 July 2017 at 9:25am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Disagree.  I think that they find a way to rule together.  That the Seven Kingdoms won't be the same after this war.  Yes, when Dani said that Jon would have to kneel before her in this latest episode, I know that he never will.  That's the impulsive Dani, the one that requires all to bend before her.  But each has something to offer and I don't think one will be in a position of power to lord it over the other.  For arguments sake, I'd say that Martin is on the side of female protagonists so it wouldn't shock me at all to see Daenerys come out on top.  But I really don't see a scenario where Jon Snow, the reluctant king, rules the entire Seven Kingdoms on his own. 
+++++++++

This show being what it is, I'd say anything is possible, from the obvious outcome to the most outlandish one.

I just think that Daenerys coming out on top would be the most obvious way to end things, since the entire series has been about her building up her forces and slowly making her way to Westeros. And this show rarely goes for the obvious choice! 

Heck, it may end with the most unlikely and/or unexpected choice of all taking the throne! 


I'm just spitballing, of course. I've been trying to process 60 very dense hours of TV in a very short timespan. Too many gigabytes in my brain!!!

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 26 July 2017 at 9:29am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

That may be how she looks upon her life when she's 60 (if she gets to be that old in this time), but that's decidedly not how she views herself now.  She's not thinking "journey rather than destination" but single-mindedly Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.  That's the lens through which we have to look at her story. She's got a very specific purpose and determination.  She's not trying to be redeemed.  She knows her father was mad and her brother as well.  But she does feel that the throne was stolen from her and she's hell-bent on getting it back.  I think learning about being a good ruler as opposed to being a reckless one comes from the long arc it's taken to get her to Westeros and those she's met on her journey.
+++++++++

Mind you, I didn't mean that's how SHE sees her story. It's very clear that her goal of conquest is a single-minded pursuit. I was referring to the overall story purpose of her arc. She may well someday end up looking back on her journey in the manner I mentioned, but she definitely ain't there, at this point. She might also be humbled by some upcoming event, or learn the hard way that her ultimate goal wasn't so important as the lessons learned on the journey.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 26 July 2017 at 10:37am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

I just think that Daenerys coming out on top would be the most obvious way to end things, since the entire series has been about her building up her forces and slowly making her way to Westeros. And this show rarely goes for the obvious choice! 

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I think the general consensus is that series title "A Song of Ice and Fire" refers to Jon Snow and Daenerys. So I'm rooting for the true dark horse candidate, Tyrion!


Edited by Michael Roberts on 26 July 2017 at 10:38am
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 26 July 2017 at 10:58am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Yeah, Tyrion is definitely the dark horse in this. It would be nice to finally see him get some respect!
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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 28 July 2017 at 3:53pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Wouldn't it be crazy if Petyr Baelish ends up being king of the Seven Kingdoms?
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 29 July 2017 at 7:52am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

I know nothing... about the books anyhow. But it seems to me that Tyrion would be leading choice to end up ruling Westeros on the Iron Throne, and the Starks running things in the north, and a treaty between them to cooperate instead of being dicks.

Not that treaties have stopped people from being dicks in the past, but... one could hope, in a world of fiction.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 29 July 2017 at 10:16am | IP Logged | 13 post reply

Jon and Daenerys make really great wartime leaders, but I don't think they'd know what to do with themselves on the Iron Throne if the Seven Kingdoms were at peace. Tyrion would be able to run things, either as King or The Hand. 
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Mario Ribeiro
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Posted: 30 July 2017 at 8:07pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

Can Littlefinger please kill that Raven boy? What a douchebag!
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Christopher Frost
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Posted: 30 July 2017 at 8:38pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

Littlefinger might be in more trouble than he knows. Bran now has the ability to see everything, including all the dirty business that Littlefinger has been involved with.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 30 July 2017 at 8:45pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

Can Littlefinger please kill that Raven boy? What a douchebag!

----

I think you have things backward.
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 30 July 2017 at 8:59pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

And, it should be noted that, thanks to generations of inbreeding, there's still a chance she may go insane, years down the line, just as her father did.
------------------------------------
That's not the way things work in Ice and Fire world. George RR Martin has established that it's like a lottery at birth. The Targaryens were either OK... or not OK. Most of the time they were OK, but every so often they were nuts.

I though tonight's episode was one of the best in a long, long while. It had me in stitches a couple of times. The bit where Tyrion told Jon he ruminated over failure better than he and the bit where Dany asked Tyrion if he was passing off his own words as ancient wisdom.

Cracking pace, excellent stuff.
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David Allen Perrin
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Posted: 31 July 2017 at 8:48am | IP Logged | 18 post reply

People are cracking me up when they say Bran is acting weird.
Shit, the kid has SEEN stuff no kid should see.  And he is now the knower of what was once unknown!  He SHOULD be weird!  You can't call yourself The Three Eyed Raven...and be anything but weird.

Are we prepared for the moment when one (or more) of the dragons are killed in combat?  You know its going to happen.

When Arya arrives at Winterfell I might get a little choked up.  Maybe.

Will Lyanna Mormont take Jorah back into House Mormont?  He will probably do something crazy heroic to get back into the fold.  But if she remains the head of the house I'm good.  She's amazing.

Euron is what Tyrion would have been if he was not a dwarf! 

Did we see Arya in King's Landing last night?   It's possible.


Edited by David Allen Perrin on 31 July 2017 at 9:44am
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Eric Ladd
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Posted: 31 July 2017 at 12:12pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

A very fast paced episode. I enjoyed the last scene between Jaime and Olenna lots. It is good to see Cercei such a cunning adversary for the final conflict. I keep thinking that we will see an undead dragon at some point in the future. Anyone else imaging that?
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David Allen Perrin
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Posted: 31 July 2017 at 12:42pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

The Night's King...riding one of Dany's slain reanimated dragons would cause heads to explode upon first sight!

I LOVE IT!
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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 31 July 2017 at 1:40pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

Hmm... Would a reanimated dragon breathe ice instead of fire?
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 31 July 2017 at 3:39pm | IP Logged | 22 post reply

It depends upon the song... ;)

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Marc M. Woolman
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Posted: 31 July 2017 at 7:02pm | IP Logged | 23 post reply

Was the "mad king" always mad, or he did
become mad?

Fully expect a dragon to die but probably
at the night King's hands.

Figure Arya will stop Little Finger's
messing with Sansa.
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Dave Phelps
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Posted: 31 July 2017 at 7:06pm | IP Logged | 24 post reply

Tyrion's made some bad calls lately; really hope he turns it around. (Although if next week's promo is any indication, it'll be a bit before he gets to try again.) At least he still has some good lines.

Both loved and hated the scene with Jamie and Olenna. Loved the scene. Hated the result. :-(
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Trevor Krysak
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Posted: 31 July 2017 at 7:40pm | IP Logged | 25 post reply

 Marc M. Woolman wrote:
Was the "mad king" always mad, or he did become mad?


He was quite sane at the start. And was so ambitious about improving Westeros it was suggested he might have one day been called "Aerys the Wise" or "Aerys the Great". Over time he became more and more paranoid and then saw enemies everywhere. It just slid into chaos.
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