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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 21 June 2017 at 8:55pm | IP Logged | 1  

http://www.comicsbeat.com/that-watchmen-hbo-series-is-back-o n-again-with-damon-lindelof/
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 21 June 2017 at 10:59pm | IP Logged | 2  

Other than changing some costume aesthetics and restoring the alien squid,
I'm not sure what can be added that wasn't already covered in the Snyder
movie.
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 21 June 2017 at 11:49pm | IP Logged | 3  

Energy
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Emery Calame
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Posted: 21 June 2017 at 11:52pm | IP Logged | 4  

"I'm not sure what can be added that wasn't already covered in the Snyder movie."

It's HBO, so the likely answer is 'way way more tits'.
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Tim O'Neill
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Posted: 22 June 2017 at 8:14am | IP Logged | 5  



I don't think it would be a good idea to do the main story again - it's so soon after the movie.  I think it would be better if they adapted the BEFORE WATCHMEN series.  I thought they were doing some good stories in that series.  I really liked the Darwyn Cooke books.



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John Byrne
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Posted: 22 June 2017 at 10:18am | IP Logged | 6  

WATCHMEN has become the new '66 BATMAN. It completely changed the shape of comics, as well as the public perception, and its shadow is so long it seems we may never get out of it.
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Jozef Brandt
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Posted: 22 June 2017 at 11:24pm | IP Logged | 7  


ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 23 June 2017 at 6:03am | IP Logged | 8  

To fill multiple seasons of a Watchmen show, the original story is sure to be bent, pulled and twisted beyond recognition. Which will of course provoke outraged reactions, from a kind of fan who otherwise loves to see superheroes bent, pulled twisted. 

Edited by Joe Zhang on 23 June 2017 at 6:04am
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Rodrigo castellanos
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Posted: 29 June 2017 at 3:17am | IP Logged | 9  

Other than changing some costume aesthetics and restoring the alien squid, I'm not sure what can be added that wasn't already covered in the Snyder movie.

------------------------------------------------------------ -----

A lot. I, for one, don't think the Snyder movie covered anything but the most superficial aspects of Watchmen.

Still, I think doing a miniseries is an awful idea. If the Watchmen film proved anything besides the fact that Snyder is a terrible director is that it's a story meant to be told in comic book format and is impossible to adapt properly in any other way. 

Don't these people ever learn?
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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 05 July 2017 at 5:43pm | IP Logged | 10  

The only thing I liked about the Snyder Watchmen film was the ending improved on the comic, which Alan Moore just ripped off from an Outer Limits episode (although he acknowledges said episode in the comic). Alan Moore, like Stephen King, really struggles to write good endings. The "alien" monster uniting the planet seems a bit of a stretch honestly. (And I realize the irony of saying that in a comic with Doctor Manhattan in it.) That said, I did love the ambiguous bit at the very end of the comic where the guy is potentially going to read Rorschach's journals. That bit was nicely done. 

I do think Comedian and Rorschach were well cast as well. But otherwise it seemed like Snyder tried too hard to turn it into an action movie.

I don't think Watchmen translates well to other mediums. It utilizes too many things that only the comic can do like parallel text from the pirate story over the main story and the art itself is just so important to making that comic work at all. So this HBO mini-series is a bad idea. Why not do a comic that hasn't been done? Like, say, Saga, which would be perfect for HBO.

Edited by Shane Matlock on 05 July 2017 at 5:44pm
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 05 July 2017 at 6:06pm | IP Logged | 11  

The only thing I liked about the Snyder Watchmen film was the ending improved on the comic, which Alan Moore just ripped off from an Outer Limits episode (although he acknowledges said episode in the comic). Alan Moore, like Stephen King, really struggles to write good endings. The "alien" monster uniting the planet seems a bit of a stretch honestly. (And I realize the irony of saying that in a comic with Doctor Manhattan in it.) 

----

The whole point of Ozymandias' plan was to unite the world against a common, outside enemy. But Doctor Manhattan was an agent of the US Government. Making him the worldwide threat would cast blame on America, not unite the countries of the world. 
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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 06 July 2017 at 2:21am | IP Logged | 12  

Uniting them against an alien threat that would never come after that initial "attack" doesn't seem like a peace that would last that long. But uniting them in fear of Doctor Manhattan as "God" watching them from space, never knowing when he might return and attack again. Seems like that would last a bit longer honestly. As for Manhattan being an American agent, I think Veidt framing him for the destruction of NYC pretty much took him into rogue ex-agent status in the world's eyes.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 06 July 2017 at 4:55am | IP Logged | 13  

The only thing I liked about the Snyder Watchmen film was the ending improved on the comic, which Alan Moore just ripped off from an Outer Limits episode (although he acknowledges said episode in the comic).

••

And how does that work? Is it no longer plagiarism if we cite the source in the work?

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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 06 July 2017 at 6:34am | IP Logged | 14  

I don't know that it isn't still plagiarism, just that he acknowledged said plagiarism. Maybe kind of like when an artist signs "after" whatever artist they are homaging it isn't considered a swipe. I'm not sure honestly.
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David Miller
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Posted: 06 July 2017 at 9:09am | IP Logged | 15  

I dispute Moore committed plagiarism in Watchmen. 

There's a big difference between ripping of an idea or a plot point and plagiarism, as well as in lifting a specific idea versus copying an entire story. Watchmen is plagiarized from the Outer Limits to the same extent Fantastic Four #91-93 was plagiarized from Star Trek. 

A theater in Seattle once presented a play called "Reservoir Dolls," billed as a satire of Quentin Tarantino's "Reservoir Dogs," with an all-female cast. It turned out to be the screenplay for Reservoir Dogs, with the gender pronouns changed and credited to a new author. THAT was plagiarism. 

Around the same time an artist in Seattle advertised some kind of walk-themed conceptual art piece with Robert Crumb's "Keep On Truckin" image, which she traced and signed her name to. THAT was plagiarism.

Rich Buckler once traced an entire Kirby "Shield" story. THAT was plagiarism. Bill Mantlo apparently plagiarized Harlan Ellison for a Hulk story, but I don't know it was stolen word-for-word or if he just lifted enough of the plot to convince Marvel to pay Ellison for it. 
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 06 July 2017 at 9:26am | IP Logged | 16  

As for Manhattan being an American agent, I think Veidt framing him for the destruction of NYC pretty much took him into rogue ex-agent status in the world's eyes.

----

All the more reason to blame the US for fostering a weapon they couldn't handle.
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Rodrigo castellanos
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Posted: 06 July 2017 at 10:20am | IP Logged | 17  

The Snyder movie ending is terrible and makes no sense. 

Whatever you think about the giant squid it's very well thought, explained and anticipated properly, and I think it makes sense in-story, YMMV though. 

About the plagiarism thing, I don't know... it's not like WATCHMEN is ABOUT this idea, it's just something that happens at the end, it could've been a million other things and still be basically WATCHMEN. 

Moore says he was told about the similarity between the ending and the Outer Limits episode, he watched it, acknowledged it and moved on. I have no reason not to believe him. 

If we talk about plagiarism of the Super-Folks novel tho... that's a different conversation.
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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 06 July 2017 at 4:15pm | IP Logged | 18  

Agree about the Super-Folks novel. There were definitely lots of ideas from that book used in Watchmen (and Marvelman/Miracleman for that matter). Though isn't that kind of Moore's thing? Taking someone else's ideas and putting his twist on him. The comic he's worked on the most over the past 20 years, The League of Extraordinary Gentleman, is exactly that, utilizing public domain characters so he can't be sued for it.

And I'm not saying the Snyder ending is great either. I just thought it was slightly better. I say this as a fan of the Watchmen comic, especially the art, but the ending was always the weakest part of it. What happens when scientists start taking that "alien" apart and figure out where it actually came from?

Edited by Shane Matlock on 06 July 2017 at 4:25pm
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Rodrigo castellanos
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Posted: 06 July 2017 at 5:22pm | IP Logged | 19  

And what happens after the kid in the smiley shirt reads Rorschach's journal? 

Leaving open threads doesn't mean bad writing, I think everything in WATCHMEN is pretty intentional.

Nothing ever ends, Adrian...
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David Miller
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Posted: 06 July 2017 at 5:40pm | IP Logged | 20  

I suspect the Superfolks accusations had something to do with the extensive footnoting that Moore turned to for a while. The first Moore book I read, Swamp Thing #46, quoted Bruce Chetwin's IN PATAGONIA, where Moore took the story's villains, and FROM HELL's footnotes ran hundreds of pages. I haven't seen him do so lately with his LOEG books, possibly because the Internet does it for him.

A great thing about WATCHMEN is one can put aside all of Moore's dialogue and captions, and still have a dynamite masterpiece by Dave Gibbons.
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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 09 July 2017 at 8:39pm | IP Logged | 21  

The Superfolks accusations were started by Grant Morrison who pointed out the similarities in Superfolks and Watchmen and Marvelman in a magazine article he wrote. Alan Moore and Grant Morrison can't stand each other to this day over Morrison's article pointing out Moore's swipes. Although at this point it goes beyond that and they're constantly accusing each other of ripping the other one off. There was an article on the Beat a few years ago where Morrison tore apart a Moore interview where Moore was speaking disparagingly of Morrison. Honestly I thought Morrison came out looking to be the one telling the most truth. Alan Moore seems to have a lot of feuds with comic creators, even ones he was once friends with. He no longer speaks to Alan Davis, Stephen Bissette, David Lloyd, and Dave Gibbons due to perceived slights. Without those guys it's doubtful he'd even had a career in comics.

All of that said, Moore has also given his share of the money he made from films adapted from his comics since From Hell to the artist on the project. Although in most of those cases, that was before they had a falling out. He originally got pissed at Gibbons for never thanking him for giving him his share of the Watchmen money, but what led to him writing him off completely was Gibbons calling Moore and asking about Watchmen stuff on DC's behalf. 

By the way, if anyone cares to read more about the Morrison/Moore feud, here's that Beat article.

http://www.comicsbeat.com/the-strange-case-of-grant-morrison -and-alan-moore-as-told-by-grant-morrison/




Edited by Shane Matlock on 09 July 2017 at 8:48pm
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David Miller
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Posted: 09 July 2017 at 9:08pm | IP Logged | 22  

My favorite part of the Moore-Morrison feud is how they literally argued over who was more punk rock.

I followed one of the links in the link, and enjoyed this:


 QUOTE:
-1) Morrison angrily complains that Alan Moore has omitted from a webchat response the fact that Morrison handed Alan Moore a copy of a zine Morrison had made, or to put it another way, Morrison angrily complains that Alan Moore didn’t talk about the time he acted as a bridge between Grant Morrison and a trash can.



Edited by David Miller on 09 July 2017 at 9:18pm
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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 09 July 2017 at 9:31pm | IP Logged | 23  

That is hilarious, David. I noticed in the comments of that Beat article that someone posted like four years later where Karen Berger said in a recent (at the time) interview that Alan Moore, had, in fact, recommended Morrison to her when she was looking for new writers for the Vertigo line of comics which at that point was just called the Karen Berger line.

I knew about that Morrison and Moore feud from reading various interviews of theirs over the years, but I didn't know about the Moorcock and Morrison thing until I read that article back when it was first published. I did think it was funny that he said he's read Morrison's stuff twice, once when he wrote it and once when Morrison wrote it. 

Honestly, both Moore and Morrison have done their fair share of plagiarizing stuff over the years, but they've both turned said plagiarized ideas into something that's distinctly their own.

Also, a few years after this came out Morrison did his own take on Watchmen with Frank Quitely in Pax Americana, just adding more fuel to the fire and Moore's allegations that he keeps ripping him off.

Edited by Shane Matlock on 09 July 2017 at 9:32pm
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John Byrne
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Posted: 10 July 2017 at 7:58am | IP Logged | 24  

A great thing about WATCHMEN is one can put aside all of Moore's dialogue and captions, and still have a dynamite masterpiece by Dave Gibbons.

••

Only value the series has, in my not so humble opinion.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 10 July 2017 at 8:00am | IP Logged | 25  

I dispute Moore committed plagiarism in Watchmen.

There's a big difference between ripping of an idea or a plot point and plagiarism, as well as in lifting a specific idea versus copying an entire story. Watchmen is plagiarized from the Outer Limits to the same extent Fantastic Four #91-93 was plagiarized from Star Trek.

••

You just supported the point that Moore plagiarized his plot. Stan and Jack -- and especially Jack -- are not exempt from such judgement.

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