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Topic: Marvel Outdoing Themselves Again (Spoilers) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Petter Myhr Ness
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Posted: 21 April 2017 at 5:03am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Wow. Talk about hating your own characters.
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Emery Calame
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Posted: 21 April 2017 at 8:13am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

I can't "not buy" Marvel and DC comics any harder than I have since around 2008 guys(I think it was Wonder Dog eating Marvin and later Green Arrow trying to kill Black canary on their wedding night did it for me.) Sorry I let you all down. 

I mainly read Goon on and off now. 

I do buy some IDW, Dynamite, Valiant, Image, or Top Cow digital comics bundles on Groupies or Humble Bundle. I'm not saying I always love 'em but it's a weird grab bag of new creator owned stuff, Astro-City-esque retreads or pardody of golden age stuff, public domain classics, or odd licensed stuff like Alice Cooper.

I watch the DC cartoons as they come out but the New 52-esque stuff is not holding my attention. Not sure how I feel about all the retreads like Judas Contract only with young Blue Beetle or Killing Joke, or DKR.

Marvel comics has been truly ridiculous for a long long time now. It's way beyond flailing and into the depths of ironic Hipster pastiche garbage. It's so bad that I still try to get mileage out of the idea that for any character there is a kewler "red" version waiting in the wings who can of course be best debuted by having them easily beat up the original character's dark-twin nemesis or evil universe duplicate. 

Yeah, Red Son of Satan can easily beat up Satan w/ Dormammu riding on his shoulders for a chicken fight. And he has SPIKES, yo. So kewl. I hear that Mesphisto pays him protection money in the currency of Spider-man marriages revoked by demonic pacts. Why in one issue Red Son of Satan beats Belasco with his long-missing arm, just for worshiping the old ones too loud. Oh and you want shock? You want references? On page 14 there's a picture of the High Evolutionary barbecuing Bova the Cow woman. Sure. Only $4 and every issue is a #1 because Marvel reboots it JUST THAT OFTEN. Be sure to get all 13 red chrome variant covers every month! 1 in 100 random issues will have some left over vintage 70's KISS blood in the ink. None of that cheap Vinny Vincent stuff. Just Gene, Ace, Peter, and Paul. Mostly Gene. He's a bit of a bleeder, that guy. We never thought we'd get the scab to stay. Good sport though!

What about Crystal Gayle? Does Red Crystal Gayle sing better than the original? OF COURSE! And her hair is longer and shinier and it's RED.

Red Red Sonja is so amazing that we just aren't ready yet. We'd foam at the mouth and forget our own names. Rumor is that she single handedly ended the Hyborian Age, oh Prince! Because they all owed her money. Nothing personal. So kewl!

My nickel's worth is that If Marvel wants to do 'Nazis won the war' then they need to slap 'What If' on the cover or else do that over in their gritty hardcore "Ultimate feat. Marvel zombies" ghetto.

Here's an idea for a new crossover mini-series thing:

WHAT IF: NICK SPENCER'S EDITORS ACTUALLY GAVE A DAMN ABOUT MARVEL COMIC'S PAST PRESENT AND FUTURE ?


Edited by Emery Calame on 21 April 2017 at 8:40am
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Brian Rhodes
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Posted: 21 April 2017 at 9:26am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Emery's scenarios make me smile at their absurdity, but also frown at the realization that any of them could "actually" happen...and that stuff that already has is equally as absurd, if not more so...



Edited by Brian Rhodes on 21 April 2017 at 9:30am
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John Byrne
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Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 21 April 2017 at 10:00am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

So many of bright ideas remind me of something that was prevalent around the Marvel offices when I started working there.

It seemed like so many writers, editors and artists were saying "Hey! Remember all that great stuff Stan and Jack did? Let's NOT do that!"

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Steve De Young
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Posted: 21 April 2017 at 10:40am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

This is just history repeating itself.  Remember "What if Peter Parker was actually the clone, and Ben Reilly was the real Spidey?" And I imagine it'll have the same longevity.
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Charles Valderrama
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Posted: 21 April 2017 at 10:41am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

I've read elsewhere that some fans are arguing that people are "jumping the gun" critiquing this "Secret Empire" storyline before it plays out entirely.

Someone wrote that there are actually two possible realities to this story and we dont know which is real yet. The exposition at the beginning of the issue tells us that the Cosmic Cube was used to implant these thoughts and memories into Cap's head.

Maybe it's just the execution that's upsetting to us ol' time readers. (Still, not interested.)

-C!
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Joseph Greathouse
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Posted: 21 April 2017 at 10:49am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

"I've read elsewhere that some fans are arguing that people are "jumping the gun" critiquing this "Secret Empire" storyline before it plays out entirely."

I don't judge anyone for jumping the gun, so to speak. After all, I'm not waiting for the Trump presidency to play out entirely as some would ask us to do.

That said, I have been more interested in the last couple of years of Marvel than I had in the decade or so before. And this isn't making me enjoy any of my old comics any less. 
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Glenn Brenner
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Posted: 21 April 2017 at 10:57am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

I wonder what's Disney's reason for keeping the publishing branch of Marvel Comics around? Is it that profitable? Is it purely R&D? Are they protecting the copyright of these characters by keeping them in print? 

I think it's pretty obvious they just keep throwing stuff against the wall knowing they can take advantage of the lifers who just keep buying for the sake of keeping their collections going. Eventually that's going to break.

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Greg Woronchak
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Posted: 21 April 2017 at 11:19am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

I've read a couple creators complaining how readers don't allow the story to progress, instead making harsh snap judgments which might be ultimately unfair. 

It doesn't bother me, since I no longer buy floppies. However, I feel bad for a current reader who is forced to accept a gimmick-driven (my call, of course) 'status quo' for years (thank you, decompressed storytelling, ugh), until the latest epic peters out.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 21 April 2017 at 1:04pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

...floppies...

sigh

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Jason Larouse
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Posted: 21 April 2017 at 10:15pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

I've read a couple creators complaining how readers don't allow the story to progress, instead making harsh snap judgments which might be ultimately unfair. 

*****

I think it's a reflex. Anyone who's been reading comics longer than 5 years groans when something like this happens because they know exactly what the deal is. 


Edited by Jason Larouse on 21 April 2017 at 10:15pm
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 22 April 2017 at 12:04am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Because I have a subscription to Marvel Unlimited, I've read the first few issues of the new Captain America series. It is clear that this is all caused by a rewrite of history by the Red Skull, using a cosmic cube.

As a premise, I have no problems with that, and so far, I've found the story to be OK. My worry with Marvel is that everything becomes 'the next big event' and sure enough, so has this. There is no such thing as a three issue story any more. What this means is that a writer has to come up with, what, two ideas every two to three years? In the past you had six to 10 ideas per comic per year. That's one of the things I miss from comics
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Andy Mokler
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Posted: 22 April 2017 at 12:26am | IP Logged | 13 post reply

...floppies...

sigh

***

I'd never heard comic books referred to this way.  Ever.  Now, it's the second time today.  Doesn't sound like a complimentary word to me.

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Matt Reed
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Posted: 22 April 2017 at 12:38am | IP Logged | 14 post reply

It's not. "Floppies" as a term for a hard copy of a comic has been making the rounds for at least a decade if not longer.  It's origins were when floppy disks were on their way out, thus a commentary on comic books in their generally accepted format being outdated.  
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 22 April 2017 at 3:13am | IP Logged | 15 post reply

If it was JUST the story in progress bothering everybody, that would be one thing.  But the editor and the writer keep giving interviews saying this is for REAL!  If there's a misperception here, it's Brevoort and Spencer's fault.
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Wallace Sellars
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Posted: 22 April 2017 at 5:26am | IP Logged | 16 post reply

Every time I give Marvel comics another chance, I'm disappointed. The
last time was with SPIDER-WOMAN. Finally, there was again a good
Marvel book I could enjoy! Then the title got hit with crossovers and an
artist change that ended my brief return to the Marvel Universe.
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 22 April 2017 at 8:17am | IP Logged | 17 post reply

Charles V.: "Maybe it's just the execution that's upsetting to us ol' time readers."

Hey Eric, how do you feel about the execution of current story events at Marvel?

I'm all in favor of it! :)
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 22 April 2017 at 9:13am | IP Logged | 18 post reply

I agree with James Woodcock on this one. The art of modern comic-writing is the art of treading water. How padded can we make this? How many ancillary titles can we tack on or drag into this gigantic, ill-conceived storyline we're cramming down the readers' throats this next year and a half? 

What got me into comics was the explosion of creativity to be found in each issue. So many concepts all happening at once, working together to create these fantastical worlds of absolute possibility and yet genuine consequence.

These days, not only are the concepts doled out by the teaspoon every few months or so, but you know, you KNOW, it's all going to be made Neverwas almost as soon as its done. You're investing in material that will not matter later on.

I could easily see this storyline as a 3-issue run of Cap during the DeMatteis era. Lots of bizarre, twisted notions all coming at the reader at once and very likely leaving them wanting more. Who knows? A character from the story might return in a mini-series, or the Nazi World within the Cube (and not the first one, either. What is it about Nazis and the Cube?) might show up again. The reader was left wanting more. And the return on the investment of cash would have been substantial. 

Today..? Comics are freakin' expensive, and the writers and editors fancy themselves to be writing sequences from James Patterson novels (not even full chapters.) Eventually, the whole thing will coalesce, they're certain, into an experience for the reader like that of reading a gripping, suspense thriller... 

Except it doesn't. It can't. It never has. Something always upsets the story flow. Some fan guesses what's about to happen and the whole thing gets "re-imagined." Or the concurrent tie-in mini-series goes awry and doesn't fit the mold. Or the next "big event" has to be groomed in the middle of this one. Whatever happens, its never anyone's fault, so the business model remains in place. The next novel will be the good one...

Another hitch in the gitalong is that by taking this approach, the reader's experience with the story dra-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-g-g-g-g-g-s-s-s-s on for-r-r-r-r-r-e-v-v-v-v-e-r-r-r-r... It is not possible for suspense to be maintained indefinitely when dispensed in a form that is over and done with in four minutes, tops, once a month. "Oh, well... Just buy the trade then..." you say? Why? I already know that the whole mess is going to be a compromised, overcooked waste of time at the outset. "Not this time! Give it a chance!!" As if "Fool Me Twice" were a shining badge of virtue for the modern fanboy.

Once upon a time, we were left wanting more. These days, we're as likely to be tired of what's given us before we're anywhere near the conclusion of it. 

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Brian Floyd
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Posted: 22 April 2017 at 9:21am | IP Logged | 19 post reply

Okay, time to submit that story idea to DC where it turns out that Bruce Wayne's parents murder was really a hit put out on them by Alfred, because they were molesting Bruce, and Alfred had someone hypnotize Bruce to bury his memories of it.

*sarcasm off*

I'm sure its going to turn out that whoever said the Nazis won the war and the allies used the Cube to reverse it is going to turn out to be a flat out liar. Either its the Red Skull or someone lying to impress him.
This whole thing has to be a lie, because if not, you might as well kill him off permanently. 

Hopefully the reason for Steve's garbage new outfit and shield is because they couldn't bring themselves to do a storyline where he's a rat bastard while wearing the classic outfit, and once its all resolved he'll switch back and trade shields with Sam Wilson.

Steve Rogers, no matter what name he's using, is my favorite Marvel hero. But I absolutely hate the costume he has now. Cap without the wings on the mask is straight up Ultimates and doesn't look right, and the boots and gloves are especially awful. Don't even get me started on the shield.

The only recent Marvel costume designs I can think of that I like, in fact, are the new Nova (the kid with the black helmet), the new Wasp and Jane Foster as Thor. But you know what? I still prefer the original characters over their replacements. I think the new Ms. Marvel's costume is atrocious, but then again, I'm not a fan of Carol Danvers' Captain Marvel outfit, either. The Ms. Marvel outfit she had was one of my favorite female costume designs. (The black outfit, not the original outfit that was based on Mar-Vell's that Moonstone was running around in for a while.)


Edited by Brian Floyd on 22 April 2017 at 9:25am
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Larry Morris
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Posted: 22 April 2017 at 9:42am | IP Logged | 20 post reply

Seems like standard operating procedure to me.  Why I haven't bought any Marvel books in years.  Integrity of the characters be damned.  It's about creating a buzz, rattling the cage.  Statue quo is anathema to them.  Let's shock people.  I was too much about the characters. They were what used to keep me coming back for decades.  When I feel you've impugned them too much, I'm gone.
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Wallace Sellars
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Posted: 22 April 2017 at 9:48am | IP Logged | 21 post reply

Okay, time to submit that story idea to DC where it turns out that Bruce
Wayne's parents murder was really a hit put out on them by Alfred,
because they were molesting Bruce, and Alfred had someone
hypnotize Bruce to bury his memories of it.

---

Brian.

No.

What
have
you
done?
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John Byrne
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Posted: 22 April 2017 at 9:49am | IP Logged | 22 post reply

Years ago, long before I did any work for DC, a writer told me he was doing a Superman story in which it was "revealed" that all of Superman's life up to that point was illusion. Basically a "Clark Kent wakes up in the shower" kind of scenario.

I questioned the wisdom of such a tale. After all, it would have to end, and then any effort to convince the fans that this was now "reality" would have been wasted -- as, indeed, would the time of the fans. (A similar story was done on BUFFY, and it was equally weak.)

Adding to the nonsense, of course, was the fact that DC was publishing other Superman titles which did not reflect this storyline.

I've often said if a fan's first reaction to a proposed story is to decry the lameness of it all, it should be taken to indicate two things: That said fan has been reading too long, and should find another hobby; and that the writer should consider scrapping that story!

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John Byrne
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Posted: 22 April 2017 at 9:51am | IP Logged | 23 post reply

Okay, time to submit that story idea to DC where it turns out that Bruce Wayne's parents murder was really a hit put out on them by Alfred, because they were molesting Bruce, and Alfred had someone hypnotize Bruce to bury his memories of it.

They were, at one time, considering a "reveal" that Alfred had molested Bruce as a child.

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Brian Miller
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Posted: 22 April 2017 at 11:18am | IP Logged | 24 post reply

WTF?
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Rick Whiting
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Posted: 22 April 2017 at 3:05pm | IP Logged | 25 post reply

They were, at one time, considering a "reveal" that Alfred had molested Bruce as a child.

______________________


It wouldn't surprise me that some current or future fan turned pro will actually write such a stupid story and DC will publish it.
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