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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 16 June 2017 at 8:26am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

From the interview Greg posted above:


 QUOTE:
People who are in Jimmy McGill's orbit often get hurt because
of things that Jimmy does. I'm thinking about the two skate rats back in
the beginning of season one. But Jimmy doesn't go into it with his eyes
open knowing that these two guys are going to get hurt.

Saul Goodman does. He does intentionally allow people to be hurt for
his own ends.


I think this describes well the difference between the Mesa Verde thing
and his treatment of Irene. In the former, I fully believed Jimmy when he
told Chuck that the only consequence he considered was that Chuck
would suffer some slight embarrassment and then move on. He was
focused on getting Kim back her client and did not think it would blow
up the way it did.

With Irene, his goal was to hurt her in order to get what he wanted.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 16 June 2017 at 9:11am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Exactly. He manipulated her friends into ostracizing her, he knew she'd be hurt by it, and then he manipulated that hurt and vulnerability to get what he wanted.
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 16 June 2017 at 11:01am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Let me be clear, I'm not saying Jimmy did nothing wrong.  I was responding to several peoples' statements that what Jimmy did in this last episode was far and away the worst thing he had done in the series so far.  What he did was morally wrong.  I just don't think it was worse than several other things he's done, and was explaining my rationale as to why.

Yes, making an old lady cry creates a greater emotional reaction than cheating a big corporation, and 'bullying' is the most horrific crime imaginable in our contemporary culture, but that has nothing to do with the moral calculus behind it all.

Also, Kim was not mistreated by HHM.  Yes, she's our plucky heroine so we root for her.  But she stuck her neck out and put her career there on the line for Jimmy, and Jimmy, apparently not caring, blew it, leaving her to face the consequences.  Consequences which she, by the way, accepted and blamed Jimmy for.  Then, to get back in her good graces, Jimmy committed criminal acts on her behalf.  And again she ended up doing things that violated her conscience in order to help and protect Jimmy.  As much as I'm down on Chuck, what he told Kim about Jimmy is true at least in this respect:  Having him as part of her life is destroying her.  It wrecked what could have been a promising career at HHM.  Its wrecked her reputation.  Now its threatening her physical well-being.

Forget the fraud on the court, the way Jimmy is treating Kim, a person he claims to care for, is worse than him manipulating an old lady into doing what is arguably the right thing to do anyway.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 16 June 2017 at 11:16am | IP Logged | 4 post reply


 QUOTE:
Yes, making an old lady cry creates a greater emotional
reaction than cheating a big corporation, and 'bullying' is the most
horrific crime imaginable in our contemporary culture, but that has
nothing to do with the moral calculus behind it all.


HHM is not a "big corporation". It's a law firm. A large law firm , yes. But
you keep trying to make this about something this is not. This is not
simply about making "an old lady cry". It's about getting an elderly
woman, who likely has little support beyond her peers at the senior
center, ostracized. And you are trying to compare this to HHM losing a
client, which is a fact of life with regard to departing attorneys. A
relatively new client that Kim originated.


 QUOTE:
Then, to get back in her good graces, Jimmy committed
criminal acts on her behalf.


This is flat out wrong. He did this to help Kim and to get back at Chuck,
but she would have never known what Jimmy did if Chuck hadn't called
him out in front of her.
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 16 June 2017 at 1:11pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

This is flat out wrong. He did this to help Kim and to get back at Chuck,
but she would have never known what Jimmy did if Chuck hadn't called
him out in front of her.
----------------------------------------------
She didn't know what Jimmy did.  But Jimmy did it to get back in her good graces.  And if you recall, Kim was suspicious before she found out the full reality of what Jimmy did, but basically squashed her curiosity because she didn't want to know.


And you are trying to compare this to HHM losing a
client, which is a fact of life with regard to departing attorneys. A
relatively new client that Kim originated.
-------------------------------------------------------
Kim made her pitch.  HHM made theirs.  The client chose HHM.  If the client had chosen Kim instead, while I'm sure HHM wouldn't have been happy about it, it would have ended there.  But Jimmy perpetrated a fraud on the court in order to steal that client for Kim.  He should have been disbarred for that.  But once again, Kim compromised herself in order to protect Jimmy.

Again, HHM losing a big client doesn't primarily hurt the senior partners, it hurts the guys and gals in the mailroom who get laid off because revenues are down.  The same is true of Jimmy's stunt to drive up Chuck's malpractice insurance.  He did it to get back at Chuck, which it did, but if it ends up closing down HHM and dissolving the partnership?  A whole lot of people are going to lose their livelihoods so Jimmy could get back at his brother.

This is my point.  What Jimmy did to Irene was absolutely wrong.  But its not an isolated horrible act from an otherwise good guy.  Its part of a pattern of bad behavior, and isn't even the worst example.  At least with Irene, Jimmy could argue that the ends justified the means, since the ends are good for almost everyone.  What he's done to get revenge on Chuck, and what he's done to try to 'help' Kim have been acts with horrible repercussions for a whole lot of people, and no noble goal to even attempt to justify them.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 16 June 2017 at 3:05pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

What this all boils down to, I think, is what the showrunners have said, which I agree with.

Jimmy committed fraud to get Mesa Verde to pick Kim to represent them. Screwing Chuck over was a bonus, but his primary goal was a sort of twisted romantic gesture (as Chuck put it). It was about helping Kim more than it was about hurting HHM and/or Chuck. Kim worked hard for that client, and Jimmy (rightfully) felt that she'd been screwed over, perhaps because of her relationship with him.

However, in the case of Sandpiper, he intentionally hurt Irene in order to get money that he wanted. He set out to hurt someone for the sake of his own greed. That the Sandpiper residents would get their money sooner was just a convenient fringe benefit and rationalization. But, it was clearly about his own million-dollar payday. That was his motivation.

That's why it's the worst thing he's done. Because he deliberately hurt someone innocent to serve his own needs. He's been on a slippery-slope for awhile, but this is the first time that he's deliberately set out to hurt someone he was supposed to be looking out for, and purely for the sake of his own greed.

Mesa Verde was an illegal act committed with good intentions. Sandpiper wasn't illegal, but his intentions and actions were selfish and reprehensible.
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Christopher Frost
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Posted: 16 June 2017 at 8:51pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

"Also, Kim was not mistreated by HHM."

Actually, she was. If you recall back in season 2, Howard sidelined her as a result of her association with Jimmy when Jimmy was getting himself fired from Davis & Main (and thereby embarrassing HHM in the process for recommending they hire him). He stuck her downstairs and left her to do research and legal aide work even took her office away. Kim went out of her way to track down and recruit Mesa Verde as a client on her own initiative as a way to get back into HHMs good graces. Howard was still dismissive towards her and that prompted her to seriously consider Jimmys offer to leave and start her own practice.Yes, she's our heroine and thus we root for her but Howard wasn't exactly being nice to her.

As for Jimmy, his actions in screwing over Chuck and stealing away Mesa Verde from HHM were illegal but he did it for Kim, both out of love and because he saw it as an injustice that they were going to keep a client that she worked hard to recruit. Justifiable? That depends on your own personal outlook and how much you weigh motives versus the ends justifying the means.

With Irene, Jimmys motivation was about getting his share of the settlement and nothing more. He was in a desperate situation and needed a quick payday and he saw the opportunity to get one. He set her up to be ostracized by her friends, manipulated the other ladies into treating Irene like garbage and did so without any noticeable regret. Even Howard saw right through him when they talked in the parking garage about it. It was all about the money and no concern was paid to the collateral damage left in his wake. This is an important distinction in the evolution (or devolution) of his character as his creation of the class action lawsuit in the first place was done so to help the Sandpiper residents. Now, he's motivated by selfishness and pride and is willing to hurt innocent people to achieve his goals.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 19 June 2017 at 7:31pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Well, here we are--the season finale, and another year of painful waiting. Although, the show has yet to be renewed, which is annoying.

The title is "Lantern", which surely refers to the Coleman lanterns in Chuck's home. They may just be a Chekhov's Gun, since they've been mentioned a few times, this season.


By the way, I don't think anyone's mentioned the Los Pollos Hermanos employee training videos (hosted by Gus Fring), which AMC has been posting on their website and YouTube channel, each week. Fun stuff!
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 20 June 2017 at 1:14am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

"Lantern".

Geez, what an episode. Not necessarily what I was expecting, either--rather low-key and character-based, rather than a bunch of big shock moments. Perhaps the biggest surprise was Jimmy walking back from his manipulation of the seniors and trying to make things right. Still, that line has been crossed. I find myself wondering if the next season will jump ahead a year to Jimmy trying to get back into the law (but now without his senior client base), but that seems unlikely, given all the dramatic meat to explore.

No Mike in this episode, since his arc ended with his signing up with Madrigal. Great stuff with Nacho/Hector/Gus, though. It hadn't even occurred to me that Gus might take in interest in Nacho, who's just the sort of person he'd want working for him. Guess we'll see. Also great to see Hamlin finally stand up for himself, and Kim step back from her course to oblivion. 

That's the great irony of this episode, most of the main cast members actually take steps away from the dangerous paths they've been headed down. Except for Chuck.

And, man, what a shocking and emotional portrait of Chuck's descent into sucidal madness. While we can't say for sure, it still looks like this is the end for him, but that seemed inevitable. 

Not exactly a major cliffhanger, here, and nothing so satisfying as seeing the actual birth of Saul Goodman. Just an excellent hour of television that continued the show's great tradition of paying off existing plotlines while simultaneously setting up new ones. Fantastic stuff. It just gets better and better.

TALKING SAUL was quite good, too.
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 20 June 2017 at 10:13am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Jimmy having a moment of clarity because of what happened to Kim was something I wasn't expecting either, but I have a feeling that if Chuck's last words to Jimmy do indeed end up being, "Why have regrets?  You're just going to hurt the people around you anyway.  You can't help it."  That's gonna stick with him.

This may end up being even more tragic than we thought.  He may push Kim away from himself to protect herand just consign himself to being Saul Goodman as his fate.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 20 June 2017 at 11:45am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

This may end up being even more tragic than we thought. He may push Kim
away from himself to protect herand just consign himself to being Saul
Goodman as his fate.

----

I was a bit surprised about how much Kim seemed to know and be accepting of
what Jimmy had done with the Sandpiper seniors, and I'm thinking the open
mic scam might foreshadow what happens between Kim and Jimmy. I think Kim
will stand by Jimmy after he crosses some line, so he'll do something horrible
to her in order to push her away and keep her from going down with him. I'd
love the irony of Saul Goodman being born out of a noble sacrifice from Jimmy.

Chuck's illness relapses after he tells a lie to Jimmy—that Jimmy never
mattered much to him. He was previously able to manage his illness after his
breakdown on the stand where he is brutally honest about his attitude toward
Jimmy and honest to himself that his illness was mental, not physical. Prior to
that, he was misleading Jimmy about why HHM wouldn't hire him.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 20 June 2017 at 12:16pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Jimmy having a moment of clarity because of what happened to Kim was something I wasn't expecting either, but I have a feeling that if Chuck's last words to Jimmy do indeed end up being, "Why have regrets?  You're just going to hurt the people around you anyway.  You can't help it."  That's gonna stick with him.

This may end up being even more tragic than we thought.  He may push Kim away from himself to protect herand just consign himself to being Saul Goodman as his fate.
++++++++

Exactly. Chuck was lying to hurt Jimmy, but Jimmy is surely gonna take this hard, and probably blame himself for all of it.

The single worst thing about this episode is that it essentially gives Kim and Jimmy a happy ending, but Chuck's final act (and that final conversation with Jimmy) will surely tear them apart, one way or another. Such a punch in the gut.
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 20 June 2017 at 10:05pm | IP Logged | 13 post reply

The next season we will probably learn what pushes Jimmy completely off the edge. Remember that in the beginning of season 2 we see fugitive-Jimmy watching videos of his Saul Goodman ads. In his flight from the law he didn't take reminders of his pre-Goodman life, like photos of Kim. It's Saul he misses. 

Edited by Joe Zhang on 20 June 2017 at 10:06pm
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 20 June 2017 at 10:17pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

I should have known that any time Vince Gilligan has the name of an object as the episode title it's going to be an emotionally rough one.  (c.f. BB's Box Cutter)

One of the great underurrents of BCS and BB is how certain characters have an ability to 'read' others, and how they make use of that information: 

* Jimmy's ability to read others manifests in his ability both as a con man, and as a lawyer. 

* Mike's both a police and a war veteran and has a remarkably honed (almost uncanny) ability to anticipate how others are going to act in certain situations.  Even his first line in BB, "Go home, Walter" shows he'd pegged a pre-Heisenberg Walt to a T.  That scene in the parking garage shows you everything you ever needed to know about Mike. He cold read the Kellermans and was able to suss out exactly where they fled.  In fact, the Kellermans are very much a prototype Walt and Skyler, right down to the wife's justification for being an accompolice to their husband's crimes.  He knew Walter before even Walter knew Walter.  It's also noteworthy that the one time Mike goes against his instinct and underestimates Walter it gets him killed.

* Gus is also very much a student and keen observer of human nature.  There's a very big difference between the polite, shirt-buttoned-to-the-top Los Pollos manager Gus and the black-suited, stern, almost cold Gus who heads up a drug operation.  Ordinary people will react quite differently to each version as if they were completely separate people (and I suspect it's rare for Gus to let people see both sides). As the saying goes, you can tell a lot about a person by how they treat their janitors.  Gus plays lowly manager so he can spy on people to see how they really act when they think no one is watching.  When he's addressing his peers and underlings in the drug trade he always stands, eyes front,  and always displays dominance -- it's what's expected of someone in that position.  When everyone is on their best behavior and deferring to you, either out of loyalty or fear it's far easier to spot when someone is hiding something.  You can sure as bet that Gus picked up on Nacho's body language and behavior during Hector's heart attack.

---------

Some other random observations about "Lantern":

* We've got a doozy of a Chekov's gun on the wall with Kim asking for the 'good' painkillers over the OTC stuff.  She may also be suffering from lapses of memory and/or PTSD.  It appears to already be affecting her work ethic.  There may also be some subliminal career sabotage happening because deep down she probably feels that she doesn't deserve Mesa Verde or any of the other opportunites MV has opened up.

* Kim: "There are lines we do not cross".  I wonder what other lines might there be.

* You can already see Jimmy being forced to grow a thicker skin and accept the fact that some people are going to hate him (for the right reasons).  Jimmy not caring about what others think of him is yet another piece of the Saul puzzle.

* Earlier on in the series we asked "What problem for Jimmy does being Saul Goodman solve?".  We need to ask another:  Why does Saul continue to stay in ABQ when it's clear at some point Jimmy's name becomes mud and everyone knows who he is?   

* Pay close attention to the story young Chuck is reading to Jimmy.  Lots of symbolism there.

* I never realized this before but Howard is the little brother Chuck never had with Jimmy.  It makes Jimmy sparring with Howard in the earlier seasons even more poignant.

* Howard handing Chuck a payout cheque parallels Kim handing Howard a cheque in the previous episode. 

* Anytime someone leaves employment "effective immediately" you know it wasn't under the best of circumstances.  Compare the applause Chuck got as he was leaving to the applause he got when he returned to HHM in Season 2.  Even the night time janitorial staff (who let Jimmy in) patted him on the back as he was leaving.

* It almost looked for a second there, that down the street from Chuck's house was Jesse Pinkman's aunt's house.  Hmm.

* Chuck's behavior in this episode bordered on manic-depressive rather than obsessive.  We've never seen Chuck taking any medication before this episode, have we?   I need to freeze frame that shot of Chuck's journal.

* I haven't heard any reports of Michael McKean leaving the BCS cast.  Make of that what you will.


Edited by Rob Ocelot on 20 June 2017 at 10:52pm
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 20 June 2017 at 10:45pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

Incidentally:

Chuck was recording details about his electricity exposure and pain in his journal, including the medications he was taking and how long their effects lasted.

He lists the following medications:

Sertraline 100mg (Zoloft)  -- antidepressant, also used to treat OCD
Cloneazepam  1mg (Klonopin) -- antianxiety
Quetiapine 100mg (Seroqual) -- antipsychotic



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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 20 June 2017 at 11:25pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

The next season we will probably learn what pushes Jimmy completely off the edge. Remember that in the beginning of season 2 we see fugitive-Jimmy watching videos of his Saul Goodman ads. In his flight from the law he didn't take reminders of his pre-Goodman life, like photos of Kim. It's Saul he misses. 
+++++++++

I could easily see a scenario where he goes goes off the rails, she won't go along with it, and then they have a big blowout, to the point where it'd be too painful for him to keep any reminders of her. 

...although there is "Ice Station Zebra", during his days as Saul.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 20 June 2017 at 11:28pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

He knew Walter before even Walter knew Walter.  It's also noteworthy that the one time Mike goes against his instinct and underestimates Walter it gets him killed.

+++++++++

...but Mike's reading of Walt and his motives was still absolutely spot-on. He just underestimated Walt's increasingly-sensitive hair-trigger, when it came to violence.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 20 June 2017 at 11:31pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

* We've got a doozy of a Chekov's gun on the wall with Kim asking for the 'good' painkillers over the OTC stuff.  She may also be suffering from lapses of memory and/or PTSD.  It appears to already be affecting her work ethic.  There may also be some subliminal career sabotage happening because deep down she probably feels that she doesn't deserve Mesa Verde or any of the other opportunites MV has opened up.

++++++++

I don't necessarily think this is the beginning of a new storyline involving medical/psychological problems for Kim. The producers have noted that her crash and memory loss was the specific result of sleep deprivation, since she'd been, er, driving herself so hard with her work.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 20 June 2017 at 11:34pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

* It almost looked for a second there, that down the street from Chuck's house was Jesse Pinkman's aunt's house.  Hmm.
++++++++

I believe the producers have mentioned that the filming location for Jesse's house is indeed down the street from where Chuck's house is located. Whether that's supposed to be true in-universe is another matter.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 21 June 2017 at 1:57am | IP Logged | 20 post reply

We've got a doozy of a Chekov's gun on the wall with Kim asking for the 'good'
painkillers over the OTC stuff. She may also be suffering from lapses of
memory and/or PTSD. It appears to already be affecting her work ethic. There
may also be some subliminal career sabotage happening because deep down
she probably feels that she doesn't deserve Mesa Verde or any of the other
opportunites MV has opened up.

++++++++

I don't necessarily think this is the beginning of a new storyline involving
medical/psychological problems for Kim. The producers have noted that her
crash and memory loss was the specific result of sleep deprivation, since she'd
been, er, driving herself so hard with her work.

------

I got a completely different read on Kim. I thought her waxing nostalgic on her
childhood admiration of Atticus Finch meant that she has become disillusioned
with corporate law and wanted to do something more meaningful.

If we are speaking about Chekov's gun, it's Jimmy's Rolodex, which Kim
convinced Jimmy to keep.
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Vinny Valenti
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Posted: 21 June 2017 at 9:46am | IP Logged | 21 post reply

So many curveballs in this finale. 

Just when you think that they are pushing Jimmy ever so close to full-on Saul, they pull back.

Just when you think they are going to cure Chuck from his illness, they shift the gear in reverse and stomp on the pedal as hard as they can. 

Just when you think that Kim is going to pull away from Jimmy given his descent into Saul-ness and his affect on her career, she decides that her career is not important after all and pulls even closer to Jimmy (heck, I think this is the first time we've ever even seen them kiss).

Just when you think that the plan to take out Hector had failed, forcing Nacho to to go for a new plan, it turns out that the original plan worked after all.

It's gotten to the point that I'm beginning to suspect that they will play with our expectation that Kim is no longer in the picture by the time we get to BREAKING BAD.

There's a part of me that's annoyed to see that they reversed course on "becoming Saul" yet again, like they did with the Season 2 premiere, but it has me thinking that they've got an even better reason for him doing so in their pocket. They know that the audience is expecting a good reason for the transition, and they've been giving us legitimate catalysts so far, so it has me thinking that the true shift will be a doozy. Of course Chuck's death will play a role, but I believe that they will be providing even more fuel to the fire (too soon?).
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 21 June 2017 at 10:39am | IP Logged | 22 post reply

It's gotten to the point that I'm beginning to suspect that they will play with our expectation that Kim is no longer in the picture by the time we get to BREAKING BAD.
++++++++

There's a hilarious bit in the latest BCS INSIDER Podcast, where Odenkirk speculates that Saul and Kim are married with kids, and so he has to change clothes (from garish suits to conservative "dad" clothes) in the car everyday on the way home to Santa Fe. Sleazeball at work, happy, loving husband and father at home.

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Vinny Valenti
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Posted: 21 June 2017 at 10:45am | IP Logged | 23 post reply

That is funny. I need to catch up on the Podcasts posthaste. You just know that the writing team has at least explored the notion of Kim being around during BB and how that could feasibly work.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 21 June 2017 at 9:36pm | IP Logged | 24 post reply

Heh.

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Steve De Young
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Posted: 22 June 2017 at 1:34pm | IP Logged | 25 post reply

Even if Chuck is dead in the present continuity now, with the way the show uses flashbacks, it doesn't mean we won't see him again.
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