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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 03 April 2017 at 11:30am | IP Logged | 1  


Remember when heroes meeting other heroes was called a "guest appearance" that happened in one issue and was SPECIAL?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Good times indeed.
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James Johnson
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Posted: 03 April 2017 at 11:32am | IP Logged | 2  

"Well. this won't sell in the South!"

That was a phrase I heard quite often in my early days at Marvel. People were well aware that not ALL our customers were East and West Coast Liberals. Every time we featured a Black character on a cover, sales would dip

In those days, sales were strong enough we could ignore such things -- hence that phrase -- but now? One man's diversity is another's reason not to buy a book. And that's not going to change any time soon.

===================================================

JB,

This has me thinking:

Was Powerman in danger of being cancelled before the TPTB decided to add Iron Fist in the book?

From my view, Luke Cage was very popular in the African American community (maybe moreso than the Black Panther) and was able to hold its own for a few years before the switch.
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 03 April 2017 at 12:47pm | IP Logged | 3  

Peter Martin for the win.

Add in, start selling comics outside of comic shops.
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 03 April 2017 at 1:14pm | IP Logged | 4  

Diversity is fine when its done organically and well.  Its a bad thing when its done as an agenda (and thereby forced on people) or by way of tokenism.

Both recent Marvel, and DCYou before Rebirth, were examples of the wrong way.  An editorial agenda is laid out, "We want our line to be more diverse in these ways."  So they go out and find minority characters of all kinds and give them books, whether they're books that have any real sales potential, expecting people to buy the books solely for diversity's sake.  Then you have SJWs online who accuse anyone who criticizes those books of being racist/sexist/homophobic/etc.  People are interested in well told stories about interesting characters, not virtue signaling by way of comics purchases.

I think this is what the sales guy was trying, unartfully, to get at.  That diversity, in and of itself, doesn't sell comics.  People aren't going to buy a comic with a female lead just because it has a female lead.  Add to this the twisting of existing characters, like the fact that Iceman's upcoming first ongoing series is going to focus primarily on his 'newly revealed' sexuality, and you have a recipe for low sales.  LGBT readers aren't going to buy Iceman just because he's now gay.  Fans of Iceman aren't interested in reading a gay romance comic just because the lead's name is 'Bobby Drake'.  If and when it doesn't sell, people will say, "Oh, people aren't interested in buying comics about gay characters" and use this to either try to shame comics readers, or as an excuse never to give a gay character a solo series again.

Within recent Marvel, the new Ms. Marvel is an example of doing it right.  The name has been handed around by a few characters in the past already.  They created a new character, with new powers, who happens to be female and Muslim, and they've focused on writing a fun comic featuring her superheroic adventures.  And sales-wise, its been relatively successful, and comics fans have mostly embraced her.

Just make new, interesting characters of various backgrounds, and when they become popular enough to support their own series, give them one.  Leave the agendas aside.  Its not rocket science.


Edited by Steve De Young on 03 April 2017 at 1:19pm
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 03 April 2017 at 2:08pm | IP Logged | 5  

Diversity is fine, but when was the last time a legacy hero really worked?  If you have to go back to Barry Allen or Hal Jordan (both replacing characters who had been cancelled for years), you don't really have an argument.

I believe Sam Wilson was made Captain America because he became very popular in the WINTER SOLDIER movie--a bit of illogical reasoning.  I wonder what might have happened if they had just given him a high-profile FALCON comic with a good creative team instead.
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Mike Norris
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Posted: 03 April 2017 at 2:33pm | IP Logged | 6  

I sometimes think Marvel doesn't like Steve Rogers as Cap. It seems every couple of years they find a way to take him out of the role. 
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 03 April 2017 at 2:42pm | IP Logged | 7  

I sometimes think Marvel doesn't like Steve Rogers as Cap.
----------------------------------
I think writers these days, by and large, don't know how to write a truly heroic, selfless character anymore, without giving them feet of clay.  You'll notice, when they did bring Steve back, they promptly turned him into a villain.
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Dale E Ingram
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Posted: 03 April 2017 at 2:52pm | IP Logged | 8  

For me, it has nothing to do with legacy characters or diversity. It seems to me that their sales are dropping because the books aren't very good. At least, that's why I've stopped buying their books.

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Charles Valderrama
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Posted: 03 April 2017 at 3:34pm | IP Logged | 9  

Bring back the Ol' seventies/eighties Bullpen to teach these dopes HOW to run a comic book company like Marvel.

-C!
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Andrew W. Farago
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Posted: 03 April 2017 at 3:43pm | IP Logged | 10  

My take? Readers and retailers don't like new characters. Until Ms. Marvel came along (and her book sells really well in trade paperbacks and digitally), Deadpool was the last character big enough to always carry a monthly solo book, and he's 25 years old.

Cable and Venom generally sell as solo characters, then you have to go back to Wolverine and the Punisher from the mid-seventies for marquee characters. If you get rid of characters created by Kirby and Ditko or characters that were direct spin-offs of the Spider-Man or X-Men franchises, what's left?
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Wallace Sellars
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Posted: 03 April 2017 at 4:06pm | IP Logged | 11  

In my mind, the real Captain Marvel is still the guy who appears when Billy
Batson says, "SHAZAM!" That said…

From the outside looking in, one of the few things Marvel has done in the last
few years that I actually like is having Carol Danvers assume the Captain
Marvel role and the title of Ms. Marvel going to Kamala Khan.
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Stephen Churay
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Posted: 03 April 2017 at 4:23pm | IP Logged | 12  

I disagree Andrew. I think readers are
open to new characters if they are well
written and have a good hook to draw the
reader in. But the fact that the character
IS diverse in their race,gender or sexual
orientation can't be the hook. I want to
read good stories with good characters, I
don't care if those characters are of
different race, gender or sexual
orientation. I really don't. But the fact
that the characters are diverse can't be
the ONLY reason to read it. That doesn't
interest me personally. I sure the stories
aren't always crafted that way, but that's
how the company is selling the appeal.

Then there is the destruction of core
characters that I've read for years. Why
does adding a diverse character mean the
core character has to go away? Is it
because he's a straight white male? That
doesn't work for me, as I see the straight
white male as part of our diverse culture.
You can't just eliminate that and supplant
if with something else. Otherwise it's
just as out of wack, just at the other end
if the spectrum.

I'm a southern conservative white male,
but I think I have a reasonable head on
my shoulders and would love to read about
all different kinds of people. I kind of
resent the idea the straight white male
equals oppressive behavior. But every
version of this story seems to do just
that. And it's BOTH SIDES of the argument.
Not every straight white male, even
conservative ones are racist, sexist,
unaccepting assholes.
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