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Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
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| Posted: 29 March 2017 at 1:16am | IP Logged | 1
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Don't forget all the changes to the Hulk! He started with three toes, a bad attitude, and the whole "change by night" thing. They even had Rick Jones controlling him for a while.++++++
I've really come to believe in the idea that the first few years of a series are a necessary "proving ground" for a character/series. After a while, things tend to stabilize, and characters become pretty firmly locked down.
This is why it annoys me when people justify Batman killing people and/or using guns because he did it very early on, despite 70-odd subsequent years of him not killing and using guns (except on rare occasions). That sort of thing.
In the case of the Hulk, Lee, Kirby, and Ditko were clearly trying to figure out what worked, in those early stories. By the time of the ASTONISH run, they got things locked down, and the Hulk stayed pretty darn consistent for nearly 20 years. Even the TV show captured the essential core of that "stabilized" version of the character, despite changing ALL of the window dressing. Which is why that show gets a big pass from me, in regards to being a proper adaptation of the comics.
But, ever since the Peter David era, the Hulk has been in a constant state of flux. I couldn't tell you who or what he is in the comics, at this point. Since I don't read the current comics, I have no clue, but have little doubt that the character continues to remain in a state of constant flux. David has justified his constant tweaking of the character by saying that the precedent was set in those first six issues.
No, that was just the creators trying to get a feel for the character as they went along. Change was not supposed to be an intrinsic part of his makeup. Well, except for the whole transformation routine, of course.
Edited by Greg Kirkman on 29 March 2017 at 3:12am
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Petter Myhr Ness
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 July 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 3826
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| Posted: 29 March 2017 at 2:07am | IP Logged | 2
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Well said, Greg.
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Matthew Wilkie
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 09 March 2011
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1139
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| Posted: 29 March 2017 at 3:29am | IP Logged | 3
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And of course the Hulk changed from gray to green!
***
And stopped flying.
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Matthew Wilkie
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 09 March 2011
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1139
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| Posted: 29 March 2017 at 3:32am | IP Logged | 4
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Tweaks I can cope with; wholesale changes to personality and look, essentially creating a new character, simply frustrates.
Heather in AF seems to change beyond recognition every time a new creative team get their hands on the book.
And the "tweaks" to Marrina into an emo-punk alien complete with piercings and tattoos were such a leap from the original design and personality that it was no longer her.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132282
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| Posted: 29 March 2017 at 4:20am | IP Logged | 5
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We should keep in mind that those "unstable" first six issues of THE INCREDIBLE HULK led to there being only six issues!
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Trevor Smith
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 3520
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| Posted: 29 March 2017 at 4:34am | IP Logged | 6
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"Does Superman count? :)"
**
A minor footnote in your career, I can see how that
would slip one's mind. Not like there was a Time
magazine cover devoted to it or anything!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132282
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| Posted: 29 March 2017 at 4:39am | IP Logged | 7
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A minor footnote in your career, I can see how that would slip one's mind. Not like there was a Time magazine cover devoted to it or anything!•• Well, technically there wasn't! As with so many things, the attention there was on the characters, not yours truly! (Which is as it should be!)
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Robert Cosgrove
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 January 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 1710
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| Posted: 29 March 2017 at 6:25am | IP Logged | 8
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I don't think Roy Thomas's tweaking of Dr. Strange had anything to do with a "golden age fetish." He liked the character and book, and it wasn't selling well enough, so the thought was that maybe putting him in a more conventional superhero costume would goose sales. Didn't work, book cancelled. I'm sure Benedict Cumberbatch is happy that the change didn't stick . . .
To me, a much more odious tweak (similarly motivated, I'm sure) was putting the Sub-Mariner in the black pimple suit. Fortunately, that didn't last either.
On Ditko redesigning Iron Man, are we sure it was Ditko? I think it likely was, but Kirby did the cover of the ToS issue that featured the new costume for the first time. Did he do it based on Ditko's story, or did Ditko draw the story based on Kirby's cover design. Surprising, given all the ink spilt on Kirby vs. Ditko co-creating Spider-man, designing his costume, etc., that this issue hasn't drawn controversy. At least, I've never seen any discussion of it?
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Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 8515
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| Posted: 29 March 2017 at 9:53am | IP Logged | 9
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Great post, Greg!
The consistent presentation of the characters over the years usually coincides with the point at which they were the most successful. Bringing back the Gray Hulk hit some fun nostalgia buttons and gave the character an interesting conflict for a while, but once the MPD justification David used became the central focus of the book and the personalities "merged" to form "The Professor," the bloom was off the rose, and the book went down in flames.
Aside from pointing out the folly of altering core characteristics of these heroes, David's run on that book should underscore the error in not being able to let a storyline go and simply moving on to the next. See also: The X-Files.
Post number 6700!
Edited by Brian Hague on 29 March 2017 at 9:57am
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Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
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| Posted: 29 March 2017 at 10:40am | IP Logged | 10
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And the "tweaks" to Marrina into an emo-punk alien complete with piercings and tattoos were such a leap from the original design and personality that it was no longer her.++++++++
Sigh.
Y'see, this whole "remix" culture that's taken over genre fiction just drives me nuts. Not only do ego-driven creators come along and knock over one applecart after another, but fans (and even civilians) excuse such changes as "just another version". Not unlike Hollywood's obsession with forced diversity (aka pandering to minority demographics), standard procedure now is to shoehorn any number of political agendas, personal indosyncracies, etc. into a character/series, instead of writing on-model, using the toys that are already there, and then putting them back in the box when finished.
I was just talking to a friend about my issues with various superhero movies, last night. She said, "I don't try to watch superhero movies as an extension of the comic books. I see them as a separate entity. Makes them more enjoyable.". I told her that's fine and dandy if you're not particularly familiar with the source material, which she isn't. But, for someone like me, who is deeply immersed in the lore, every pointless change and boneheadedly backwards bit of characterization stands out like a flashing neon sign.
Even civilians have been brainwashed into thinking that every new iteration of a character/series will be--perhaps even "necessarily"--just another version.
The Marvel and DC universes are two of the greatest fictional universes ever created. And, while there have certainly been change and evolution. especially in the case of DC, at least certain broad aspects of characters have remained true for their respective histories. Superman should always be Superman, even if the details around him change. "On-model" doesn't mean "slavishly devoted to a time long past". It should mean "consistency of characterization and tone, so as to maintain a sense of verisimilitude".
If I went into a comic store and picked up the latest issue of INCREDIBLE HULK or AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, I'm sure I'd find the characters to be unrecognizable. That would not have been the case, up until the last 20-plus years or so, when the singers really started becoming more important than the song.
Edited by Greg Kirkman on 29 March 2017 at 10:42am
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Josh Goldberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 2065
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| Posted: 29 March 2017 at 10:40am | IP Logged | 11
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Interesting to note that in those earliest issues of The Hulk, there is no reference in the text as to the Hulk being grey, green, or any color. It makes me wonder how late in the production process they decided to make him another color.
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Stephen Churay
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 8369
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| Posted: 29 March 2017 at 11:08am | IP Logged | 12
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Greg Kirkman: But, ever since the Peter David era, the
Hulk has been in a constant state of flux. I couldn't tell
you who or what he is in the comics, at this point.
=====
Heh, not Bruce Banner.
Nobody has ever asked me to tweak a character, but they
should. My not he a professional comicbook creator is
irrelevant.
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