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Conrad Teves
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 2230
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| Posted: 07 March 2017 at 1:29pm | IP Logged | 1
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For me, this is easy. I love the medium and would like it to be healthy again. It's clearly not. I still buy other kinds of comics, and I want to buy those superhero books again, but at least in the US, the industry is in a toxic funk. The Big Two refuse to do anything new, or even recognize what "new" is. I'm convinced they honestly can't tell. To them, gross stunts and flailing elaborations on existing characters are their definition of "new." From that perspective, grinding up my favorite characters is just a symptom of a larger problem. From that perspective, how could I possibly be ambivalent? Of course I'm going to care! Can't speak for anyone else, but that's why I'm pissed. |
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Vinny Valenti
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 8117
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| Posted: 07 March 2017 at 1:33pm | IP Logged | 2
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Ugh....for a fleeting moment I thought that Doom temporarily as Iron Man could be interesting if done right - but that's all out the window with that pose shown above. I just don't see Doom striking poses like that. Iron Man would, though - and this just serves as a reminder to me that Doom is just not Iron Man.
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Andrew W. Farago
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4079
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| Posted: 07 March 2017 at 1:38pm | IP Logged | 3
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Was everyone this upset when Rhodey replaced Tony for a couple of years back in the mid-eighties, and again in the early nineties? Or during the aftermath of the Death of Superman or Knightfall?
I don't have any problem with this kind of storyline, since it's been a standard thing since I first started reading, as long as creators can find an interesting take on it. It's got to be something really interesting to catch my attention, though, since so many characters have had this kind of story in the past five years. There's a real danger of losing everyone when you're in perpetual crisis mode.
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Charles Valderrama
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4830
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| Posted: 07 March 2017 at 1:43pm | IP Logged | 4
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Was everyone this upset when Rhodey replaced Tony for a couple of years back in the mid-eighties, and again in the early nineties? Or during the aftermath of the Death of Superman or Nightfall?
***********
Yes. For me, it was the beginning of the end... that i'd soon have to find another type of entertainment to replace mainstream comics.
-C!
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Brian Skelley
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 February 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 231
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| Posted: 07 March 2017 at 1:46pm | IP Logged | 5
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How can using the same characters for what? 80+ years be considered 'new'? Even when they attempt to refresh the characters (something I'm not the biggest fan of, but then I'm too old for comics to consider me the primary target) they're slammed repeatedly and then sales fall until they're restored to the original versions. I may not like what Marvel is doing with the characters, but I do think that Doom running around playing at Iron Man (though I'm not sure they ever called him that, like the Iron Heart running around in the other Ironbook.. I'm pretty sure they've just hijacked his titles to do other characters) is 'new'.. just a 'new' I'm not a fan of.
The biggest issue I see with threads like this is people think that their versions of the characters is the correct one and if it's not faithful to that then it fails. I find that bizarre as in this forum a lot of those people then go off saying that comics should be for kids. Comics either need to grow and update with the times (which will have refreshes and relaunches), or they need to be for the fan that's read them all their life and people need to stop pretending it's for kids.
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Conrad Teves
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 2230
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| Posted: 07 March 2017 at 2:03pm | IP Logged | 6
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Here's the problem, Brian. While I have absolutely no problem with comics being made for literally any target audience from pre-literate 2 year-olds to strictly adult NSFW material, it's worth noting those superhero characters were designed for younger audiences. There's a perfectly good reason they weren't replete with swearing and sex. It's like making Winnie The Pooh dark and edgy to attract adults. Or making Game of Thrones kid-friendly. Not the same product, and a perversion of both. Paraphrasing Roger Ebert, "it's not what it's about, it's HOW it's about it."
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Charles Valderrama
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4830
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| Posted: 07 March 2017 at 2:15pm | IP Logged | 7
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My "versions of the characters" and whether they're correct wasn't the issue with me, Marvel Comics as a whole is... they mainly read like fan-fiction to me these days. Looking thru some preview art of this "new" INFAMOUS IRON MAN... I can't enjoy the stale art and the slow pacing.I don't get Doom's new motives... they changed everything I enjoyed about his character to tell this tale.
It's what drove me out of comics in the first place. Nothing was really exciting or visually dynamic when I opened them up anymore. Guess I'm too nostalgic for these new attempts to "freshen" the characters. |
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Michael Casselman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 January 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 1246
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| Posted: 07 March 2017 at 3:06pm | IP Logged | 8
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I don't have an issue with 'replacement' storylines, except when they draaaaaag out for so long as they seem to do these days. Knightfall, the original Rhodey-as-IM stories, Reign of the Supermen... they were all guilty to varying degrees of pushing that envelope to where it is now, as the replacements end up being front and center in any concurrent 'event' company-wide crossover, as well. Those earlier storylines also helped usher in the age of made-for-trade stories. I recently spent a few days going through a few years worth of both Justice League and Justice Society series from just before the New 52, and I couldn't believe how much a difference it makes by not reading them month to month as opposed to in-one-sitting. The League, for example, between one disbanding until it's disbanding right before New 52, only had a handful of actual adventures in their title over the course of 3 years, not including the intrusions of the companywide crossovers... and most of this time was alos during the Dick-as-Batman timeframe, too, so you also had to be somehwat aware of Final Crisis and the Death of batman/Return of Bruce Wayne arcs as well. Tiring and overly cross-written with the rest of the shared universe, ultimately one of the reasons I cut bait when New 52 came into existance.
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Conrad Teves
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 2230
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| Posted: 07 March 2017 at 3:54pm | IP Logged | 9
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Missed answering this, sorry:
Brian>>How can using the same characters for what? 80+ years be considered 'new'?<<<
The exact same way a story with a new character can be considered "new."
Exercise: Take any story you ever heard, or make a new one up. Now reframe it as a Batman story. Or reframe it as a Western. Or a Swords and Sorcery story. Real life example would be Shakespeare stories being reframed as something else, e.g. The Tempest becomes Forbidden Planet.
However, when I said "new," that's not what I was referring to. I mean the Big Two are afraid to do anything new. To boil that down, that means something that is completely stand-alone and unrelated to anything they already do. Yes, that's risky. Always. But the potential reward for "new" is very high. Look what Marvel got out of the unparalleled creative burst in the 60's.
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Steve De Young
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Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3507
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| Posted: 07 March 2017 at 4:42pm | IP Logged | 10
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Look what Marvel got out of the unparalleled creative burst in the 60's. ----------------------------------------------------------- Which happened as a result of Stan Lee being tasked to create superheroes to try to reproduce DC's burgeoning superhero revival success.
So, not really 'new' then either.
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Mario Ribeiro
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 18 June 2016
Location: Brazil
Posts: 474
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| Posted: 07 March 2017 at 7:36pm | IP Logged | 11
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It's the same reason why so many of us bitch about remakes of our favorite movies that clearly don't get the point of the original.
Also, I guess most of us still spend good money on comics, including mainstream superhero comics. It's just the we buy collections of old comics. So they're still kind of present.
Plus, like many have already mentioned (including me), the problem with this particular story is that it's too similar to Superior Spider-Man.
Yet, I won't deny that the way it is presented to those of us who are not reading the stories can make them look absolutely ridiculous. "Marvel Girl joins an S&M club" would look stupid back then, too, and of course it's not exactly what happened, but there's no doubt in my mind that most of us would bitch about it if someone had put it this way. It just doesn't seem like a good idea, and not like something I would like to read.
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Rick Whiting
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004
Posts: 2214
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| Posted: 07 March 2017 at 9:51pm | IP Logged | 12
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I think that the most recent sales "estimates" to comic shops is proof that the direction the Big 2 continue to go in (aiming their superhero books at a mostly older aging shrinking audience) is proof that they are going in the wrong direction. And I say this as someone who thinks that DC is taking a few (but no where near enough) positive steps in the right direction.
http://comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2017/2017-02.html
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