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Brian Hague
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Posted: 25 February 2017 at 8:23pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

I read the buckle as being a securement strap from the Botany Bay. When Khan transported his people over from the sleeper ship, he would also have sent over whatever small amount of cargo or personal effects they were carrying at the same time since he planned to set the ship adrift. Logically, some of those items could have been secured with that strap which is why it's still there in cargo pod.

Edited by Brian Hague on 25 February 2017 at 8:25pm
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 25 February 2017 at 10:47pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Sentimentality...

Yeah, that sounds like Khan...

++++++++


Hey, you never know. I'm just spitballing. There were 72 other supermen aboard the ship. Maybe one of them--or perhaps even the history-minded McGivers--took the buckle before the Botany Bay was cut loose.


The script specifically calls out the books on the bookshelf as being from the 20th century, which indicates that they were Khan's, and not something he took from the Enterprise. "Lethal-looking swords" (not seen in the film) and the buckle are also mentioned. This all gives the impression that these items are Khan's personal effects, carried over from the Botany Bay


What this all comes down to is that Nick Meyer paid attention to "Space Seed" when writing the script. He clearly noticed that the Botany Bay had been jettisoned, and so came up with the idea of Khan's home being made from Starfleet cargo pods. But, he also needed some sort of visual cue to trigger Chekov's realization of the situation he and Terrell had just stepped into, hence the buckle.


Interestingly, the novelization of TWOK states that Khan's home is what's left of the Botany Bay, as does IDW's KHAN comic miniseries, which was set in-between the episode and the movie. A heck of a lot of fans and writers seem to think that Khan's home is either the remains of the Botany Bay, or that the cargo pods came from that sleeper ship. This despite dialogue which indicates otherwise ("...never told you how Admiral Kirk sent seventy of us into exile on this barren sandheap, with only the contents of these cargo bays to sustain us?").


As an aside, the whole sequence in Khan's home is really a masterclass in building tension and providing a "previously on STAR TREK" infodump in a way which both advances the plot and is revealing of character. It scared the bejeezus out of me, when I was a kid. Montalban just rocks that scene from start to finish, with Khan's sarcasm, bitterness, and simmering anger. To say nothing of his chillingly casual and mock-friendly description of how the Ceti Eels function. Horrifying stuff.



Edited by Greg Kirkman on 25 February 2017 at 10:47pm
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David Miller
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Posted: 27 February 2017 at 11:01am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

When I was a kid I thought they were living in pieces of the old Botany Bay. I probably got that from the novelization. Live and learn. 

Someone disposed to John Milton allusions and falling passionately in love with the first woman he encounters out of suspended animation strikes me as probably sentimental enough to yank a seat-belt from the ship which was his home for hundreds of years. 
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John Byrne
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Posted: 27 February 2017 at 12:27pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

There were 72 other supermen aboard the ship. Maybe one of them--or perhaps even the history-minded McGivers--took the buckle before the Botany Bay was cut loose.

Almost workable -- tho it still leaves us with the question of how the 22nd Century Enterprise came to be equipped with post-refit style cargo pods.

+++++++

A heck of a lot of fans and writers seem to think that Khan's home is either the remains of the Botany Bay, or that the cargo pods came from that sleeper ship. This despite dialogue which indicates otherwise ("...never told you how Admiral Kirk sent seventy of us into exile on this barren sandheap, with only the contents of these cargo bays to sustain us?").

How does that "indicate otherwise"?

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 27 February 2017 at 12:35pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Almost workable -- tho it still leaves us with the question of how the 22nd Century Enterprise came to be equipped with post-refit style cargo pods.
+++++++

It's not inconceivable that the TOS ship carried such pods, although I do wonder if TWOK was sorta-kinda trying to show what TOS tech "really" looked like. 

After all, Khan's Starfleet insignia necklace is based on one of the TWOK uniform belt-buckles, and thus features the circular backing added to the Enterprise insignia for TMP, which is an anachronism.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 27 February 2017 at 12:39pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

heck of a lot of fans and writers seem to think that Khan's home is either the remains of the Botany Bay, or that the cargo pods came from that sleeper ship. This despite dialogue which indicates otherwise ("...never told you how Admiral Kirk sent seventy of us into exile on this barren sandheap, with only the contents of these cargo bays to sustain us?").

How does that "indicate otherwise"?

+++++++


The phrasing of "these cargo bays" (rather than, say, "our cargo bays") comes across to me more as Khan saying that Kirk had provided the pods, rather than their coming from the Botany Bay. Not definitive, of course, but that's how it played for me since I first saw the movie. 

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Michael Casselman
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Posted: 27 February 2017 at 3:15pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Is it possible that sometime duting the six months prior to Ceti Alpha VI exploded, that Starfleet dropped off some sort of provisions in refit era pods (we've seen uniform changes roll out over the series of a few years, so tech could just as gradual in it's development, as could be signage and emblems that would explain Khan's 'new' Starfleet buckle pendant) as a "See ya, you're on your own now" gesture?
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John Byrne
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Posted: 27 February 2017 at 3:40pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

How does that "indicate otherwise"?

+++++++

The phrasing of "these cargo bays" (rather than, say, "our cargo bays") comes across to me more as Khan saying that Kirk had provided the pods, rather than their coming from the Botany Bay. Not definitive, of course, but that's how it played for me since I first saw the movie.

Nah.

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 27 February 2017 at 5:32pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

How does that "indicate otherwise"?
+++++++


The phrasing of "these cargo bays" (rather than, say, "our cargo bays") comes across to me more as Khan saying that Kirk had provided the pods, rather than their coming from the Botany Bay. Not definitive, of course, but that's how it played for me since I first saw the movie.



Nah.
++++++++

You'll have to be more specific. "Nah" to my childhood reading of the dialogue?

Seriously, though, when I was a kid, the line struck me as Khan saying that the cargo pods came from Kirk. Something about the phrasing and Montalban's disdain in the line reading made me think that. As weird as it is to say, something about that line doesn't make it sound like Khan is referring to cargo pods which were his to begin with. It sounds more like he's describing the meager resources which Kirk left him to work with, rather than his having to fall back on his own cargo and resources from the Botany Bay when the planet's ecology went crazy. It's hard to articulate, but that's how I interpreted it, when I was 11 years old. But, that dialogue didn't seem to jibe with the Botany Bay buckle, and the discrepancy is what led me to look into the whole matter, and subsequently discover that Khan's home was based on the TMP cargo pods.

Edited by Greg Kirkman on 27 February 2017 at 10:51pm
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 02 March 2017 at 1:52am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

I have the 2017 STAR TREK Ships of The Line calendar on my wall. The month of February featured artwork depicting the launch of the Botany Bay, entitled "Ascent". 

In a rather amazing coincidence, I just flipped the calendar to "March", which features the Enterprise and Botany Bay orbiting what is presumably Ceti Alpha V, with a shuttlecraft leading the way. It's entitled "Descent".

So, even my calendar thinks that Khan's home was made from the remains of the Botany Bay. Sigh.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 02 March 2017 at 3:46am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

I have a LOT of trouble accepting the Botany Bay as a ground launched vehicle!
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 02 March 2017 at 5:45am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

The cargo pods on Ceti Alpha V were designed to be the same as those shown in Star Trek: The Motion Picture. Nothing in "Space Seed" indicates that the Enterprise or Khan's People were transporting over gigantic boxes large enough for 72 people to live in, and the Botany Bay was set adrift by Khan before the end of the episode. The Remastered episodes even go so far as showing the moment onscreen, if memory serves.

So, you get to choose: Either the Enterprise turned around, went back, and grabbed the Botany Bay a second time to provide housing for Khan and co. using cargo containers from the 1990's that somehow look exactly like the sort used hundreds of years later, or Kirk sent them down with the containers he had on hand and the few personal effects they themselves already brought over before cutting the Botany Bay loose. That would mean the previously unseen TOS-era containers look like those in use approximately five years later in ST: TMP. 

Ground-launching is a fairly bizarre new idea from the Trek offices. We've already seen orbiting facilities capable of Starship repair and manufacture. Humanity is comfortable in space. Aside from a Luke Skywalker-esque "twin moons" shot in Abrams' film, little is gained by building these things in a gravity-based environment. Ever since I first heard about the Utopia Planitia Shipyards, I've pictured it as an orbiting facility. But hey, when you can beam people willy-nilly off the ship at high warp and carry a transporter in your duffle bag to take you from Earth to the Klingon Homeworld, suddenly a lot of nonsensical things become possible. Why would there be logic? Why would there be rules? Heck, why would physics be any sort of consideration at all?

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 02 March 2017 at 11:12am | IP Logged | 13 post reply

I have a LOT of trouble accepting the Botany Bay as a ground launched vehicle!
++++++++

I believe the notion traced back to a study model made for the STAR TREK ENCYCLOPEDIA (and which also made its way into an episode of VOYAGER) that depicted the Botany Bay with a bunch of booster rockets attached to its aft section. 
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 02 March 2017 at 11:13am | IP Logged | 14 post reply

the Botany Bay was set adrift by Khan before the end of the episode. The Remastered episodes even go so far as showing the moment onscreen, if memory serves.
+++++++

So did the original!
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Jack Bohn
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Posted: 03 March 2017 at 9:29am | IP Logged | 15 post reply

The Khan pods were larger than those on the Enterprise cargo deck, at least on the inside; Khan had room to lift people over his head.

The launch of the Botany Bay annoys me to no end. Maybe the "submarine" core was launched, (not really, but maybe,) but then they also have the four boxes hanging off of it. I can only explain the model's appearance on the show as being a kit, built by someone who has also built a Space Shuttle kit with the External Tank and SRBs attached and the cargo bay doors open to show off Spacelab and the Canadarm deployed. You'd think at least the radiators in back would be kept out of the wind. (Picture "The Launch of Voyager VI" from a future calendar: the probe sitting atop a Delta-ish rocket, communications dish pointing forward, all arms out!)
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Josh Goldberg
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Posted: 04 March 2017 at 7:34am | IP Logged | 16 post reply

The launch of the Botany Bay, as depicted in the 1996 revised edition of the Star Trek Chronology.

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Josh Goldberg
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Posted: 04 March 2017 at 8:25am | IP Logged | 17 post reply

And from the 1999 revised edition of The Star Trek Encyclopedia.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 04 March 2017 at 9:10am | IP Logged | 18 post reply

There is so much wrong with those "Chronologies," so much fanboy self-indulgence, that I treat them like Wikipedia, and consider just about anything listed there as suspect.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 04 March 2017 at 9:59am | IP Logged | 19 post reply

As I have noted in the past, I grew up in an era when the ENCYCLOPEDIA and other such works were the already official standard for canon.

Once I got around to watching TOS in its entirety, in my late teens, I was rather surprised to see just how many commonly-held beliefs about characters, chronology, and concepts were based on misreading and misconceptions. Sort of like how AbramsTREK is essentially based on what people think TOS was like, rather than the actual show.


Edited by Greg Kirkman on 04 March 2017 at 10:03am
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