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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 02 March 2017 at 5:17am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

DS9 didn't hold my attention for what I figured out was a very simple reason.

DS9 was a space station... stationary. Not a lot of possibilities for a Star Trek.

When they add the Reli9ant, that changed some... but I was no longer watching it very much by then.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 02 March 2017 at 5:42am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

I vaguely remember the producers at the time saying TOS was "Wagon Train" and DS9 was "Gunsmoke" when comparing it to westerns.

I've certainly made that observation. Roddenberry pitched STAR TREK as "WAGON TRAIN to the stars." His point was that Matt Dillon, over on GUNSMOKE, mostly had to sit around and wait for the stories to ride into Dodge, while on WAGON TRAIN they went to the stories.

DS9, while it might have expanded its horizons somewhat in later seasons, sit had the space station as a "home base". There was so much less sense of being Alone Out There.*

_________________________

* Truth to tell, as I have noted before, there wasn't really a whole lot of that on TOS, either. It was only rarely that the crew really went "where no man has gone before."

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Brian Hague
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Posted: 02 March 2017 at 6:31am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

There is so much about DS9 that rubs me the wrong way that its difficult to remember what elements were there that I did like. I vaguely recall liking Odo just because I like shape-shifters of the Plastic Man variety in general. I do remember thinking that he must be really light if you can pick up the bucket he sleeps in. I liked Siddig El Fadil as an actor even if I could only occasionally tolerate the insipid character he was playing. Terry Farrell was pretty.

On the other side of the scale, you have the theft of concept from Straczynski, the "Commander" rank for Sisko, the loss of Ensign Ro and Michelle Forbes before the show launched, the happy "terrorists are just like you n' me, Everybody!" attitude, the Trek self-hate every time they talked about how they were the dark and edgy one, holosuites, Quark, and probably fifty other things that I'd rather not bring to mind right now.

The show essentially has only three sets and they are all ugly. You have the central command center which also has Odo and Bashir's offices attached, you have the Runabout (later switched to equally uninteresting looking Defiant), and you have the Promenade. The Promenade looks so much like the command center that I wouldn't be surprised if I've confused whose offices were where. Importing Worf from TNG was so very, very "TV" as was the switch from Jadzia to Erza, and Worf already was tainted by the "TV-ness" of his romance with Troi, weirdly underscored by his TV Marriage to Dax. ("Tonight on a very special Deep Space Nine...") Nana Visitor had to be the fussiest, least effective terrorist ever to appear in an ongoing role. She wasn't angry. She wasn't vengeful. She wasn't icy. She was just pissy and irritated all the time. Nothing about that performance read as competence. It was as if the director kept telling her assistant to bring her the wrong cup of coffee. Cold.

But really, it was the Mirror Universe that lost me on the show entirely. Okay, yeah, Kira as the Intendant was more fun than could be fit into a one-size too small PVC catsuit and Nana Visitor clearly had a ball playing her, but other than that it's still among the most egregious fanfic concepts to ever make it to film, based as it is upon that reliable fanfic trope we all know so well, say it with me, folks: Kirk. Screwed. Up.

Really, untold billions are dead because of that crummy know-nothing jerk. That wonderful speech he gives Spock before beaming out in that episode we're spitting on? The one that we're cannibalizing to put food on our family's table this week and a new roadster in the garage? That one? What a dumb, dumb-dumb-dumbitty-dumb-dumb buncha' nonsense that was!! Hoo-boy! Way to go, Kirky, ol' boy! Fix the whole universe with a song! What a dumbass franchise we're all working in... Let's really give it to 'em, what's say? Let's show how stupid the original show was... By making Kirk's little speech there responsible for the who-o-ole universe crashing down around everyone.

Of course, even if we were to accept the premise that Spock's attempted coup ended things for the Empire and turned humanity into a slave race, it would be Spock held to blame for the results in such a world, wouldn't it? But no... We're writing fanfic so WE know it was really Kirk that got him to do that, so naturally everyone THERE would know it was Kirk who got him to do that so... Besides, Spock's still cool even he was on a dumb show. Kirk, though? Dumbitty-dumb-dumb!!

Man, I really don't like DS9.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 02 March 2017 at 6:55am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Brian, in another reality, I might have called you friend.
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 02 March 2017 at 8:42am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Brian, that there? Perfect
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Kevin Brown
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Posted: 02 March 2017 at 9:07am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

This is what I think what the producers should have done once or twice a season:  open the show up with the station and its crew/inhabitants, "move" to a ship docked there and about to head through the wormhole, then follow that ship on its mission, and it then ends up back at the station at the end of the mission.

They could have really expanded the ST universe that way and introduced numerous characters for possible future shows/series.  Definitely a missed opportunity.
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Shaun Barry
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Posted: 02 March 2017 at 9:51am | IP Logged | 7 post reply


"She was just pissy and irritated all the time. Nothing about that performance read as competence. It was as if the director kept telling her assistant to bring her the wrong cup of coffee. Cold."

This made me laugh out loud, Brian... and surprisingly nail-on-the-head, when I think about Visitor's performance, too!



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Marten van Wier
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Posted: 02 March 2017 at 12:45pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

You should see how many books there have been made in which the Mirror Universe is a crap sack place for all people and species that are Federation members in the regular universe.

Honestly, it seems almost everyone who works on Star Trek wants to do the Mirror Universe, in particular either in the time in which the Terran Empire still around, or the crap sack 24th century where humanity and other Fed species are in general second rate citizens, and everything is dark, edgy, and kinky sexy.

And guess what, even if the Terran rebellion wins it goes back to re establishing the Terran Empire, continuing where it left off. All Mirror Spock apparently did was temporary break it up.

Basically the Mirror Universe can not be changed, evil and cruelty must prevail.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 02 March 2017 at 9:05pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

James and Shaun, thank you very much. JB, I'd like to look in on that reality. I could bring my False Maria over to your place to hang out with your Robby the Robot.

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Kevin Brown
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Posted: 06 March 2017 at 10:20am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Getting back to DS9 now....

I'm midway through season 4.  Some fairly good episodes, but they've really "devolved" Worf from how he acted/reacted in TNG and in the TNG movies.  I fell like I'm watching a parody of a character right now.  It's a bit jarring.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 06 March 2017 at 1:21pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

I have not seen many episodes of DS9, but it seems like every one I did, Worf was being played as essentially comedy relief.
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Peter Hicks
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Posted: 06 March 2017 at 2:05pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

I had to stretch to see how Worf could be interpreted as comedic relief. I suppose in the episodes dealing with his romance and marriage to Dax, that may have seemed the case. But when I think of Worf on DS9, I remember stuff such as:

- locked in a Jem Hadar prison camp, and having to fight one soldier to the death each day while the others watch
- being adopted by General Martog's family
- killing Gowran, and hence becoming the new Klingon Chancellor

Once the Dominion War started, DS9 became my favourite Star Trek series. Episodes prior to the war were admittedly weak.
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 07 March 2017 at 5:41am | IP Logged | 13 post reply

The few DS9 episodes I saw seemed to show Worf as a parody of his original character, and being joked on. This carried through to "Star Trek: Insurrection." I remember a LOT of takes, and... a gorch. WHAT THE EVERLASTING HELL? This was the guy that no one wanted to even BE near because of his nature... and now funny man?

Every time Michael Dorn had to do a take, a little of Worf was eroded. Shame, that.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 07 March 2017 at 1:25pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

"No, really. The next time you're near him, take a sniff and say, 'Is that lilacs?'"
"No, thank you. I have my own ways to torture Worf..."

And so did the writers...

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Brian Rhodes
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Posted: 07 March 2017 at 3:59pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

I think it may have some of its roots in the the Q-Pid episode of TNG.

"Sir, I protest, I am NOT a merry man!"

Which was a funny bit (along with the Belushi-esque smashing of the ukulele). But that was a funny episode. Fine to play with Worf as the tough-guy-clown in that context. But then...they just kept doing it.


Edited by Brian Rhodes on 07 March 2017 at 4:06pm
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Shaun Barry
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Posted: 07 March 2017 at 6:18pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply


Worf should have been one side of the same coin as Spock... a mysterious, alien loner on board a ship of mostly humans, albeit one who could bite your arm off if you weren't careful around him.

Instead, TNG, DS9 and the TNG films domesticated the character!  Whether or not they used him for comedy relief, he could be just as bland and lifeless as anyone else on those series.



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Brian Rhodes
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Posted: 09 March 2017 at 9:06am | IP Logged | 17 post reply

Just watched FIRST CONTACT again yesterday...more of the same.

He starts off kind of bad-ass: "Perhaps today is a good day to die!" and "Prepare for ramming speed!"  This guy is going down fighting.

Then they beam him off the Defiant, Riker busts his balls about the size of the ship and his ability to handle phaser duties (in the midst of a huge Bog assault, at that).

Then the gravity boot thing where tough-guy Worf gets a rumbly in his tummy from it. At least he did get the Arnold-like "Assimilate this!" moment in that bit.

By the time Picard calls him a coward for wanting to abandon ship, Worf replies, "If you were any other man, I would kill you where you stand!" You kinda think...well, probably not, really. Presumably all Picard would have to do is run circles around him a few times, make him sick and dizzy, knock him over.  Maybe that's why Worf specified "where you STAND."


Edited by Brian Rhodes on 09 March 2017 at 9:09am
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Kevin Brown
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Posted: 11 March 2017 at 9:55pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

I just got through "TRIALS AND TRIBBLE-ATIONS".  Of all the spinoff shows, that was probably the best time travel episode ever.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 12 March 2017 at 9:50am | IP Logged | 19 post reply

I just got through "TRIALS AND TRIBBLE-ATIONS". Of all the spinoff shows, that was probably the best time travel episode ever.

As unnecessary sequels go, that was a fun episode. It managed not to break too many of STAR TREK's own "rules" about time travel, and even the "overlaps," such as Sisco and Dax being in the background of a shot where they were not before -- well, that can be explained by "cumulative" time travel. The time travelers are not there until they are there!

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Kevin Brown
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Posted: 20 March 2017 at 1:16pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

Into season 7....  Now we're plodding along.  The death of Jadzia felt a lot like an afterthought in many ways.  Heck they've focused more on the loss of Nog's leg than they have on the death of Jadzia....


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