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Marc Baptiste
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Posted: 13 June 2017 at 10:16pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

In Greek Mythology even gods can "die" - Zeus slew his father, even as he slew his father before him.

Marc
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Ed Love
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Posted: 15 June 2017 at 12:29pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

The point of Ares' speech is that he didn't cause the War, that darkness and propensity for violence and bloodshed is already in man. He is a tempter and prods and seduces Man into such things and atrocities, but we're capable of it on our own.

Just as I don't think we're meant to doubt that Diana is a goddess and that her original origin is simply a lie told by Hippolyta. Ares comes out and says that she was the daughter of Zeus and given to Hippolyta to raise in hiding as only a god can kill a god. We can invoke that she's being told that by Ares, the villain, and thus subject to being amended; but I don't think that loophole is intent by the film-makers. The thrust of that battle and her manner of victory and all the fore-shadowing/hints that Hippolyta kept dropping is that she is the actual daughter of Zeus and not a golem given life. The identity of her mother is not stated, but this account would rule out Hippolyta.

Frankly, I didn't care for what was done with the gods in the movie at any point. Having Ares kill them all takes away a huge backdrop and storytelling engines for further movies. It's like taking Asgard out for good from Thor. I feel that making Wonder Woman an actual goddess with the mega power upgrade also makes the character less relatable and further removes the character from her roots. She has powers, but not so much so that someone like Cheetah is not a threat. She should only be a level above the other amazons.  Plus I liked the comic aspect that the amazons and Diana are representative and to serve as the Greek goddesses' counterpoints to the machinations of the male gods. Having her being a weapon and contingency plan of Zeus as opposed to Hera or Athena just feels wrong, like it's missing part of the point of her character.
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David Miller
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Posted: 15 June 2017 at 1:46pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Ed: Good point about taking away the gods. Comics have had a tendency to squander potential in the name of the Big Fucking Deal. It was like when DC eliminated all but a handful of Green Lanterns. All that accomplished was reducing story options by an order of magnitude.

Also, and I suppose I should count my blessings here, I was surprised the movie didn't tie the Greek Gods to the New Gods in some way, as part of advancing whatever their plans are for Darkseid. (For that matter, SUICIDE SQUAD's Enchantress should have been a New God from Apokalips.)

I'm guessing Warner's plan for Darkseid won't gel until they see what Marvel does next with Thanos.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 15 June 2017 at 4:00pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Ah, so Vader is the only one who tells Luke the truth...

When did people start embracing the notion that what the Bad Guy says is true? In bygone (apparently) days, that was the surest sign of falsehoods.

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Brian Rhodes
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Posted: 15 June 2017 at 4:33pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

I feel that making Wonder Woman an actual goddess with the mega power upgrade also makes the character less relatable...

Doing the Yoda lightning bit is an upgrade, but not at a "mega" level...and makes her no less relatable than someone that has been depicted as being able to go toe-to-toe with Superman for at least the last 30 years.


Edited by Brian Rhodes on 15 June 2017 at 4:35pm
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 15 June 2017 at 8:57pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Saw this yesterday and liked big tranches of it very much, but thought it kind of dipped as the action elements got ramped up, culminating in a below-average climax. As others have pointed out, it felt too video-gamey.

I thought Gal Gadot was excellent. Totally fits the role, looks brilliant, has a real warmth, charisma, authority, sincerity. The works.

Quite liked how they portrayed the relationship between Steve Trevor and Diana. There was a nice ego-less aspect to both of them that I liked.  

My favourite stretch of the movie was probably the bit in London, with the whole fish-out-water bit, beating up spy baddies. The humour worked well here, as an extension of Diana's character in contrast to the social mores of the day. Her testing out the various clothes for combat abilities and the warrior stance she adopted to get through the revolving door had me chuckling. Etta Candy worked very well.

Wasn't such a fan once they hit the front -- seemed a bit odd to have a woman and a baby down in the trenches and would have preferred to have seen Wonder Woman take off like a gazelle out of the trench.

I found her comrades to be a insufficiently developed. There was sort of a decent stab made at this but then they didn't really go anywhere. Non-shooting sharp shooter Charlie, for example, is a likeable enough character and they introduced some potentially interesting aspects, but there was no arc. He's there, he's mildly interesting, but then no more. I understand there's only so much time, but it sort of felt they'd bitten off more than they could chew introducing some of these characters and they felt like fifth wheels at times. For example, giving her that crucial extra four feet when leaping up to explode the bell tower.

The film had its little bone-headed moments, some of which have been mentioned -- the seemingly overnight boat journey, the curious choice to have the Germans speak only in accented English -- but these were kind of minor quirks.

Not sure I agree with the premise of the armistice being some kind of fragile negotiation that had the allies worried about upsetting the Germans. As I understand it, Germany was on its knees by that point, which is how they ended up agreeing to such a punitive and humiliating treaty the following summer.

Overall I'd characterise it as a pretty good film with an excellent leading lady. Could have been a very good film had it managed to have a stronger ending.

I kinda like that electric Wonder Woman theme music...
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Jim Petersman
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Posted: 15 June 2017 at 9:57pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Finally saw this one. Good film that could've been great if better edited. Personally, I think that Perez handed them the perfect Ares story, so I'm baffled as to why they didn't use it and instead chose to add on the new God Killer power (I'm assuming that's what the bracelet blasts were). I give it a B- which is the best score a DC movie has gotten from me in a very long time.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 15 June 2017 at 10:21pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

(I'm assuming that's what the bracelet blasts were).

You're writing the movie!

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Marc Baptiste
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Posted: 15 June 2017 at 11:05pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Jim,

I don't think there was supposed to be a God Killer "power" per se, I think the movie made it clear that Diana IS the God Killer.

Marc
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Dave Kopperman
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Posted: 16 June 2017 at 1:11pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Saw it last night.  I liked it quite a bit (plotholes be damned), and my wife loved it.  Definitely the best thing DC has done since at least the first Nolan Batman, and possibly since the first Superman.  I'll have to rest on it for a few days.
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Jim Petersman
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Posted: 17 June 2017 at 4:27pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Yes, Marc, I remember them saying that she is the God killer. I just don't understand what gives her the ability to kill gods. I was pretty tired when I saw it so maybe I missed something.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 17 June 2017 at 6:10pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

I just don't understand what gives her the ability to kill gods.

----

Ares stated that only a god can kill another god.
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 18 June 2017 at 8:12am | IP Logged | 13 post reply

I'm uncomfortable with the concept of a god killer. Hero killer, sure; but gods weren't gods. They were created reasons for occurrences. "Killing" Apollo would kill the sun crossing the sky; "killing" Zeus would get rid of thunderstorms; et al.

In a forum such as ours, such discussion seems reasonable and natural; among the Amazons, who worship these gods, it seems incredibly unrealistic and contrary to their belief system. Then again, I may be assigning too much thought into the concept of the "god killer." It didn't seem to be euphemistic to me, though...


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John Byrne
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Posted: 18 June 2017 at 11:16am | IP Logged | 14 post reply

If we take that the "gods" are super-powerful but not supernatural beings, then we might imagine various of them assuming roles that allowed them to have power over humankind. "Don't mess with me, mortal, or I will strike the sun from the sky!"

This fits well enough with the jumbled history of gods of most nations, all down the years. Some of the tales were true, some were not. (Or in the words of Roy Thomas, some of those myths didn't happen.)

The movie messes up by complicating Diana's origin. Was she sculpted from clay and brought to life by Zeus? Did Zeus impregnate Hippolyta? If the former, then she may well be able to lay claim to the godhood. If the latter, only half a god at best.

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Shaun Barry
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Posted: 18 June 2017 at 3:16pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply


Need to sleep on it some more, but I enjoyed it very much, and it's my new favorite movie of the year so far (the acting, emotion and overall novelty helps to bump it past KONG: SKULL ISLAND, for me)...

I thought it was one of the better superhero attempts in quite awhile, and easily one of the best DC films... still not as wondrous as SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE, but in a lots of ways, I liked it even more than most of the BATMAN films (none of which I can honestly say I flat-out loved).

Gal Gadot was a much better actress than I was expecting, and the production design was first-rate.  My main complaint is that most of these modern superhero films are just too danged long, and WONDER WOMAN is no exception--really no need, that I can see, for this to be almost 2 1/2 hours long!  (And yes, that's a complaint I have for SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE as well, in case you were wondering.)

Would have enjoyed even more time spent on Paradise Island, sometimes the tone was inconsistent, and the WWI setting threatens to make the whole affair almost too dour, but for the most part, very enjoyable and effective--and one of the few superhero examples that deserves to labeled "important."  I was very happy that my kids were able to see this.

If I had to choose a letter grade, I'd say a solid B+, at least.



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Daniel Gillotte
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Posted: 18 June 2017 at 11:23pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

Took my 11.5 year old daughter since my female friends have been raving about it. I was hoping to avoid it because all the DCU is a nightmare to be avoided as far as I am concerned.

This was fine. Gal Gadot was great. Much of the supporting cast was great. I loved the scenes on Themiscrya. Great stuff. 

But Ares scheme (if there even was one) seemed like seriously weak tea.

But, on a girl power level the film worked for my daughter and I liked the various feminist twists of WW saving the man/ men more than once and the use of the man as the beefcake/ eye candy as well.

Doesn't make me ever want to go back to the DCU though. 
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Petter Myhr Ness
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Posted: 19 June 2017 at 11:49am | IP Logged | 17 post reply

Saw it today and I enjoyed it a lot. It has third act problems, as mentioned by others, like basically every superhero movie of recent days. But Gal Gadot shines so brightly as Wonder Woman throughout it all, that it makes up for a lot of it. It was good to see the main character carry the entire movie like that.
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Roberto Melendrez
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Posted: 21 June 2017 at 1:40pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

I saw it on Saturday with my 15 yr old daughter. We were both underwhelmed. It was ok but not GREAT as lots of folks describe it.  

My hopes started quickly dropping with the overnight voyage from Paradise Island to London. I could have forgiven that if the rest of the movie was as good as people make it out to be.  

I also didn't like Steve and Diana spending the night together. It seemed way too quick- sure passion in the heat of battle and all that but it didn't work for me- heck she just met the guy. Real people act that way for sure but not superheroes (who are supposed to be better than real people). Again, I could have forgiven that if the rest of the film was good.

Also not a fan of the whole daughter of Zeus thing. I prefer the magical statue of clay given life and gifts of the gods. I think of the George Perez origin as the definitive one and wished that the movie had stuck to it.  Perez also gave a neat explanation as to why Wonder Woman wears American symbols. Could have made her uniform closer to the one she's historically worn.

My biggest problem is the big ending battle. I'm aware that I may not always be the brightest bulb in the box but until Diana called Ares "brother", I thought during most of the battle that Diana was battling Zeus.  His wielding lightning bolts, the actor looking more like an older man than a vibrant god of war, and the scene where Ares is beaten by Zeus gave me the impression that Zeus was manipulating things all along.  I have to admit I was a bit bored at that point so I may have not been paying as much attention as I should have.  I usually don't get confused during a movie and somehow this part confused me.

As for Gal Godot- pretty much owns the role.  I look forward to seeing her as Wonder Woman in the future.


Edited by Roberto Melendrez on 21 June 2017 at 1:45pm
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 21 June 2017 at 2:21pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

Real people act that way for sure but not superheroes (who are
supposed to be better than real people).

----

Diana grew up on an island free from patriarchal, Judeo-Christian
hang-ups about sex. Her spending the night with Steve Trevor is not a
moral failing on her part, and arguably, her sex positivity is what
Marston intended with the character.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 21 June 2017 at 2:39pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

But, on a girl power level the film worked for my daughter and I liked the various feminist twists of WW saving the man/ men more than once and the use of the man as the beefcake/ eye candy as well.

Yet somebody thought she needed her own Howling Commandos.

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Roberto Melendrez
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Posted: 21 June 2017 at 3:38pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

Paradise Island didn't seem to be the type of place where freelove reigned, Michael.

While lots of religions (most?) have hang-ups with sex (particularly femal e sexuality) and morality, I don't think that waiting to get to know someone a little better is exclusive to religious folks or exclusive to the modern era. Not versed in the ways of love (by this I mean the dynamics of relationships), Diana is potentially naive to some of the betrayals that can come with love but she isn't dumb. She probably was well versed in the lore of Olympus - tales of Zeus' piccadillos and the consequences of them were probably something she was well aware of.  I would think that the Amazon's have some sort of mores related to sexuality established during their time in Man's World and Diana is likely aware of those too. At the very least Diana would have been smart enough to give it a little time and avoid the potential heartache she likely heard about. 

Like I said, the scene didn't work for me and something that usually doesn't stand out for me in nonsuperhero films. I would have forgiven it if the film would have been better.

I'm not as well versed on her creator's opinions on sexuality as others. You may be right in that this may very well fit into his vision of Wonder Woman.


Edited by Roberto Melendrez on 21 June 2017 at 3:46pm
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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 21 June 2017 at 4:09pm | IP Logged | 22 post reply

While lots of religions (most?) have hang-ups with sex (particularly femal e sexuality) and morality, I don't think that waiting to get to know someone a little better is exclusive to religious folks or exclusive to the modern era. Not versed in the ways of love (by this I mean the dynamics of relationships), Diana is potentially naive to some of the betrayals that can come with love but she isn't dumb. She probably was well versed in the lore of Olympus - tales of Zeus' piccadillos and the consequences of them were probably something she was well aware of.  I would think that the Amazon's have some sort of mores related to sexuality established during their time in Man's World and Diana is likely aware of those too. At the very least Diana would have been smart enough to give it a little time and avoid the potential heartache she likely heard about. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You think the Greek gods have hang ups about sex? 

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Roberto Melendrez
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Posted: 21 June 2017 at 4:15pm | IP Logged | 23 post reply

Hera got jealous of Zeus's lovers and hated his offspring that weren't her's so I would guess the gods have some degree of hang ups..

Of course, any morality or hang ups that the gods possess is a reflection of the morality and hang ups of their worshipers (who created them) so I think that it makes sense that the gods are as screwy as your average human.


Edited by Roberto Melendrez on 21 June 2017 at 4:27pm
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 21 June 2017 at 4:26pm | IP Logged | 24 post reply

She had the sex talk with Steve while they were sailing to London
(Clio's 12 treatises on bodily pleasure), and it's clear she didn't have the
same baggage about it as he did. Sure there's a risk of betrayal and
heartbreak when it comes to sleeping with someone, but so does any
other type of romantic intimacy. It's only the layer of "a woman is
somehow tainted if she gives herself to someone" that demands the
extra caution.
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Roberto Melendrez
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Posted: 21 June 2017 at 4:33pm | IP Logged | 25 post reply

You're probably right Michael. The scene may not have worked for me but I'm likely in the minority and it's hardly a controversial scene. A couple of my noncomics friends LOVE the film and have seen it more than once- people who like it seem to REALLY like it.

Overall it's not a bad film but, for me, it's not an excellent one.  (My favorite being Superman the Movie to give a frame of reference.)


Edited by Roberto Melendrez on 21 June 2017 at 4:35pm
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