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Leigh DJ Hunt
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 February 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1570
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| Posted: 25 January 2017 at 1:09pm | IP Logged | 1
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JB, on another forum, an industry artist mentioned he was offered a job as being an inker on one of your DC titles but he was concerned that his interpretation of the pencils would be wrong as they were looser than he was used to. No idea if he's being 100% right and if he is, whether this was a rarity (the looseness) but, in such a circumstance, what would you expect the inker to do?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132234
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| Posted: 25 January 2017 at 3:11pm | IP Logged | 2
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One of the first things I discovered when I went to work for DC was that very few inkers there seemed to know what breakdowns were. Breakdowns -- loose pencils which the inkers were paid extra to "finish"* -- were common at Marvel. Give breakdowns to a sharp inker, and several days could be cut off the time it took to produce a book. Many DC inkers, I found, were functionally able only to trace over what the penciller gave them. If there were no shadows, they did not add them. Likewise with textures. Line weight. The results often looked more like coloring books than comics. One inker complained after working on one of my breakdown issues that "You didn't give me much to work with!" "That's why you got PAID MORE," I said. ________________ * Look for that credit in 70s and 80s Marvel books.
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Josh Goldberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 2065
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| Posted: 25 January 2017 at 3:37pm | IP Logged | 3
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Can someone post a few examples of full pencils vs. beakdowns?
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Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2291
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| Posted: 25 January 2017 at 5:07pm | IP Logged | 4
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As a reader, I could always tell there was a difference in "inking theory" at DC as opposed to Marvel. At Marvel, it was always fun to (for me, at least) to play editor and assign different creative teams to different books, and which inker to put with which penciler was a lot of the fun. For example, Klaus Janson inking Sal Buscema was perfect on THE DEFENDERS, but I never would have put Janson on Buscema over on CAPTAIN AMERICA--maybe Bob McLeod there. Sal and JB were the most fun to play with as their styles looked great with so many different inker styles.
I never played that game with DC though. By the 70's at least, DC did not seem to have built a strong stable of inkers like Stan Lee and Marvel did. Joe Rubinstein did an amazing job on Starlin for one issue of LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES--then Marvel grabbed him. Klaus Janson did a great job on some Rich Buckler back-ups--then Marvel grabbed him. Terry Austin on Marshall Rogers for their iconic Batman run on DETECTIVE COMICS was glorious--then Marvel grabbed him.
Dick Giordano was the one star inker that DC seemed to have, though I thought Frank McLaughlin was great on Dick Dillin and Irv Novick (he didn't seem to alter them at all though, but gave them a strong professional finishing). The only time I noticed inkers at DC was when the wrong inker was assigned to messy up Curt Swan's clean pencils (which I could tell were great from previous issues).
It's nice to hear from "the horse's mouth" that my childhood assumptions were on the money.
Edited by Eric Jansen on 25 January 2017 at 5:09pm
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John Popa
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 March 2008
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| Posted: 25 January 2017 at 6:08pm | IP Logged | 5
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Hey Josh - Bob McLeod has several examples of pencils-to-inks on his website, if you're interested.
http://www.bobmcleod.com/befaft.html
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Matt Hawes
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 16428
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| Posted: 25 January 2017 at 7:13pm | IP Logged | 6
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Here is an example of breakdowns (note: they were colored by the magazine that published them -- the original breakdowns were not in color):
LINK!
Here is an example of full pencils:
LINK!
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Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4548
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| Posted: 25 January 2017 at 9:39pm | IP Logged | 7
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Eric Jansen wrote:
| Terry Austin on Marshall Rogers for their iconic Batman run on DETECTIVE COMICS was glorious--then Marvel grabbed him. |
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In Terry's case, DC basically pushed him out the door. And appropriately enough for this thread, it was over a conflict about layouts versus full pencils.
Terry says (in an interview in Comic Book Artist magazine) that when he started working with Rogers, Rogers was doing full pencils. But as time progressed Marshall started giving him less and less, and Terry had to do more finishing work on the art. He didn't mind, but felt he was entitled to earn more if he was doing more work. So he went and talked to managing editor Joe Orlando. Orlando yelled at him and refused his request for a raise, and Terry responded by quitting. He notes in the interview that they wound up replacing him with Dick Giordano, and Dick's page rate was higher than the amount Terry had asked for as a raise. So they ended up spending more and breaking up the great Rogers/Austin team for no good reason. Classic "keep the freelancer intimidated" editorial mismanagement.
Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 25 January 2017 at 9:42pm
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Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013
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Posts: 2291
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| Posted: 25 January 2017 at 11:03pm | IP Logged | 8
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Hmm...interesting. But if Marshall Rogers was still being paid his full rate, was it really "keep the freelancer intimidated" or was it a bit more "we think nothing of inkers"?
Edited by Eric Jansen on 25 January 2017 at 11:03pm
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Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004
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| Posted: 26 January 2017 at 2:42am | IP Logged | 9
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I went back and reread the interview to refresh my memory. Terry said that throughout their time working on Batman, he and Marshall periodically had to meet with Joe Orlando, and Orlando hated their work and always screamed at them both about how awful it was. This was the existing relationship the two of them had with Orlando.
So the day Terry asked for a raise (explaining it was because Rogers' pencils had become less complete) Orlando screamed at him as usual and said he could not have the raise. But they (Orlando and Julie Schwartz) also said were going to "deal with" Marshall. Orlando and Schwartz made this big show of how they were going to call Rogers down to the office and tell him in no uncertain terms that he damn well had better do full pencils from now on. Terry said he felt terrible, because his intent hadn't been to get Marshall in trouble, and he was afraid he'd set him up for a chewing out. He says he went out in the lobby and waited for Marshall, and caught him beforehand to warn him/apologize before he went in to see the editors.
So Marshall went in to meet with them, and when he came out Terry asked him what happened. Marshall replied, "Nothing. They told me I was doing a great job and gave me a raise." It was at this point Terry decided to quit DC.
I don't think it was simply a case of believing inkers were not important, because up to that point they'd been equally abusive to both guys. If I had to guess, I'd speculate that they were realizing Marshall was becoming a fan favorite/superstar artist, so they wanted to keep him happy and that's what changed how they treated him. They clearly weren't aware he and Terry talked to each other.
And of course the funny thing is that Marshall decided to leave DC a few issues later anyway.
Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 26 January 2017 at 2:50am
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Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 26 January 2017 at 3:52am | IP Logged | 10
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Ironic, since Austin was the first inker (over JB) who seemed to be the first "fan favorite/superstar" inker--at least as far as this fan saw it at the time! (Not sure if Joe Sinnott got all the credit on FANTASTIC FOUR that I now see he deserved.)
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Ariel Justel
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 09 August 2016
Location: Argentina
Posts: 70
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| Posted: 26 January 2017 at 6:59am | IP Logged | 11
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When I started reading comics, I still didn't know about inkers and many times I was confused with the artwork changing a little since the artist was the same. I was really shocked to see the difference an inker can make! The inker can make the pencils look way better... or way worse sometimes! At the end, it all depends on personal taste I think.
George Perez is an example where I think no inker can make it better than Perez itself. In his run with Kurt Busiek he made full pencils for several issues but, while the inker still did a great job, you can easily notice when Perez started making only breakdowns. And they say Perez's breakdowns are very complete!
Edited by Ariel Justel on 26 January 2017 at 8:54am
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Greg Woronchak
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Joined: 04 September 2007
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 26 January 2017 at 8:14am | IP Logged | 12
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Here is an example of full pencils:
With some contrast (darkening), that page is almost good to go! I like the idea of breakdowns, allowing the inkers to add some creativity to the mix.
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