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Topic: Star Wars Ep. VIII:The Last Jedi - SPOILERS begin Pg 12 Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Jozef Brandt
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Posted: 08 November 2018 at 5:18pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply


Speaking as someone who loved Brick, and thought Looper and Brother's Bloom were both decent flicks, I can't believe that the same thoughtful person created The Last Jedi.  He makes the expanded universe (now known as legends) look sane in comparison.  I think Kathleen Kennedy allowed him to disregard the work of the Star Wars story team in some strange roll of the dice to distinguish her Star Wars from the rest of the canon and they crapped out and now have put themselves into some strange headspace/alternative reality where the only responses they have to criticism are completely divorced from reality. 

In regards to that last quote of his, I can't imagine any sort of child (and especially no adult) watching the OT and interpreting Luke Skywalker that way.  The whole point of the OT was that it ended with a *changed* Luke Skywalker. 
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Steven Myers
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Posted: 24 November 2018 at 3:06pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

I finally watched this. Probably worse than FA in my opinion. But I don't understand some things (and this is a long thread so help me please.)

Why doesn't the rebel leader tell Poe what the plan is, instead of letting him mutiny?

The code breaker guy reveals that the rebels are flying cloaked ships to the planet--how did he find this out?
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Bill Collins
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Posted: 24 November 2018 at 4:14pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Carrie Fisher died, would it not have been more apt, for
Princess Leia to die in this than the awful space walk
thing?
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Shaun Barry
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Posted: 25 November 2018 at 4:31pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply


In terms of plot specifics, nothing about THE LAST JEDI makes much sense at all.

I found it entertaining and enjoyable during many parts--and I found the dialogue and acting to be noticeably better than THE FORCE AWAKENS--but as a story, I must agree that it's a mess.  I plan on rewatching it in the next couple weeks... it'll be interesting to see if any of it holds-up.



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Glenn Brenner
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Posted: 25 November 2018 at 5:18pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

One of the many things that bother me about Last Jedi is the lack of Force ghost presence. Where is Yoda or Obi-Wan when Luke was dealing with young Kylo? Why doesn't Anakin appear to Kylo and tell him not to worship Darth Vader because he was wrong? 

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Peter Martin
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Posted: 25 November 2018 at 6:59pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

That seems a case of overthink. Why should Kylo be in contact with Anakin's 'ghost presence' at all? Presumably turning to the Dark Side would cut you off from this anyway. Or why didn't Qui-Gonn constantly beset the Emperor? "He's not an Emperor, he's a very naughty boy!"

The help or non-help of Jedi spirits has been sporadic at best throughout the series -- and, I would argue, seems to be limited to some kind of direct contact during the living years.
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 11 December 2018 at 7:39pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

I finally, finally got around to watching this. It's ... not too bad. Not the dumpster fire that fans accuse it of being. It's certainly the most gorgeous looking Star Wars film yet. Movie-making technology has come a long way. 

I think Lucasfilm's mistake was in managing expectations for the film. I recall the trailers making TLJ seem like a more serious movie, similar to The Empire Strikes Back. Nobody expected a trippy deconstruction of Luke Skywalker and all of Star Wars. Fans were really let down, and I can understand why they remain unforgiving of the filmmakers. 

Deconstruction should be the very last resort, when a franchise has lost all its fans. Because at that point, there's nothing to lose. It certainly should not be utilized at the height of a property's popularity. This is a colossal blunder. 





Edited by Joe Zhang on 11 December 2018 at 7:44pm
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Jim Muir
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Posted: 12 December 2018 at 5:05am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

<<The code breaker guy reveals that the rebels are flying
cloaked ships to the planet--how did he find this out?>>

I was channel hopping last night and happened on the very
scene: It's while Finn, Rose(?) and code breaker guy are
in hyperspace back to the fleet. Finn is talking to the
rebel leader over the radio. You get a close up of Del
Toro just as she mentions the plan.

Though why the leader was fine revealing the plan to Finn
but not Poe is anyone's guess.
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Stephen Churay
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Posted: 15 December 2018 at 3:59pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Why doesn't the rebel leader tell Poe what
the plan is, instead of letting him
mutiny?
=====
Because if she didn't treat him like shit
there would be no movie?

When I initially watched this film, I
liked it. But as i thought about it, and
watched it again, it started to show its
flaws. Now, I think this is the biggest
dumpster fire of a movie, I've ever seen.
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 17 December 2018 at 10:42am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Joe: I finally, finally got around to watching this. It's ... not too bad. Not the dumpster fire that fans accuse it of being.

**

Oh, ok. Thanks for straightening me out. Finally a definitive answer.

Stop all the criticizing, all you critical fans. Turns out you're wrong.
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Shaun Barry
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Posted: 20 December 2018 at 9:15pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply


Watching it again, a year later, with the commentary track...

I still stand by my original assertion that it's a very odd, gorgeous, bold, but ultimately bonkers STAR WARS film.

Still much more entertaining than the Prequels, probably is the one film with the best ACTING across-the-board, but with some very wonky & weird bits that don't jibe well at all with the rest of the film.  Some dialogue is clunky, some sequences need to be cut (Canto Bight?  Good grief.); and yes, "Flying Space Leia" gets my vote as the biggest unintentional howler in all of STAR WARS.

But, it doesn't offend me,  It just exists, and I find Luke's arc interesting.  Maybe not where I expected it to go. but I can live with it.

Rian Johnson seems to have had his heart in the right place, but his reach certainly exceeded his grasp.  I don't envy the position he was in, and definitely don't agree with the off-the-wall crap he's been inundated with since the release.  It's wrong-headed at times, but, I feel, not as bone-headed and stupid as Abrams' THE FORCE AWAKENS.

It's just a movie, that can't and won't affect my love for the Original Trilogy.  Moving on!



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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 21 December 2018 at 12:21am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

I think the intention behind Canto Bight was to show us that Star Wars could be more than just Jedi vs. Sith, Empire vs. Rebels. That Star Wars could be about morally grey themes. About poor, plucky kids sticking it to fat cats. The disaster for Disney is that some (many?) fans took that as a declaration of what Star Wars will be about from here on out. On this point I side with the critics. It's Star Wars, not Star Somethingoranother.

Edited by Joe Zhang on 21 December 2018 at 12:23am
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 21 December 2018 at 1:16am | IP Logged | 13 post reply

Joe: That Star Wars could be about morally grey themes. About poor, plucky
kids sticking it to fat cats.

**
These ideas are new?
The entire Original Trilogy begs to differ.
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Jim Muir
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Posted: 21 December 2018 at 3:13am | IP Logged | 14 post reply

I enjoyed it at the time but in the cold light of day,
there were too many mis-steps for me:

The impossibly compressed timeline of the story, Luke's
characterisation, the pointless Canto Bight journey,
the casual dismissal of all the plot points from the
previous movie Johnson didn't seem to like (Rey's
parentage, Snoke).

And while I do like Luke's fake out ending, his death
was ENTIRELY unnecessary! Nowhere do we get the
impression this is a herculean task for the greatest
Jedi alive, and the movie works just the same if you
cut it 30 seconds early so he doesn't vanish.

As Shaun said upthread, it's still infinitely more
watchable than all of the prequels, though it feels
like a different scifi movie with Star Wars dressing
bolted on afterwards. Say what you like about The Force
Awakens, to me at least it -feels- like Star Wars - it
carries the humour, heart and simple sense of adventure
that had been missing for a long, long time.
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Christopher Frost
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Posted: 21 December 2018 at 9:42pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

Canto Bight wasn't pointless. It was essential for Finns story arc. Going into the film, he was the same coward who just wanted to grab his friends and run away. By going on the mission with Rose, his eyes were opened to the realities of the galaxy, that it wasn't just good vs. evil and that there were people who were going to profit from war and those who were going to suffer if nobody would stand up to help them. By the end of that journey, Finn had come to believe in the Resistance cause and was even willing to sacrifice his life to try and save them.

Longer than it needed to be? Possibly. Pointless? Not at all.
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 22 December 2018 at 5:57pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

Problem is that Finn's "conversion" never really happened. Or happened exactly after Rose arrested him for jumping ship. Finn then figured out a possible way of saving the Resistance fleet. From then on he was 100% committed to seeing his plan through. Then on Canto DJ's revelations made Finn doubt the purity of the Resistance. A lot of time in the movie was spent on Finn, but the development of his character bounced around like a pinball. 

Edited by Joe Zhang on 22 December 2018 at 6:05pm
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Christopher Frost
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Posted: 22 December 2018 at 9:36pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

His commitment to the plan was still about Rey and making sure she had something to come back to. His conversion to believing in the Resistance had more to do with the injustices he saw on Canto Bight than just helping out. Seeing how the children & animals were suffering and how Rose was able to inspire some hope in them also put that same hope into Finn and made him realize that it was more important to fight for something you believe in than just fighting to run away. 

Most of the criticism aimed at the Canto Bight plotline seems to be focused around the fact that the mission ended in failure (which was due to betrayal, not incompetence) and the general dislike that the fanbase seems to have for Rose (completely unwarranted IMO).

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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 23 December 2018 at 3:46am | IP Logged | 18 post reply

Christopher: Going into the film, he was the same coward who just wanted to grab his friends and run away.
***
No, that is who Johnson reverted him into after Finn had already changed in the previous movie. And, as Joe says, Finn's development in TLJ is a mess.

The idea that seeing gamblers waste money and space horses run free fuels Finn to believe in the Resistance more than fighting side by side with Rey against a cruel and wicked Kylo Ren is a perfect example of how tepid and half-baked this wretched movie is.
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Shaun Barry
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Posted: 23 December 2018 at 11:26am | IP Logged | 19 post reply


I will say that THE LAST JEDI, as a whole, strikes me as a first-draft screenplay... I still think there are some bold, interesting ideas in there, but it feels like it was rushed into production, and everything was thrown at the wall to see what would stick.  It certainly could have used some fine-tuning, whether with more revisions made, perhaps a co-writer added to the mix, and probably could have used an extra year for editing and pacing issues (since it only came out two years after THE FORCE AWAKENS, and not the usual three, for a STAR WARS sequel).

Whether you like it or loathe it, it's definitely one of the most flawed entries, at least in terms of overall concept.



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Christopher Frost
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Posted: 23 December 2018 at 9:49pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

Finn didn't change in the first movie. He had two motivations in TFA... get away from the First Order and rescue Rey, the girl he liked. Everything he did in that movie was in service to those goals, including the mission to Starkiller Base and his ill-fated one on on battle with Kylo. He didn't do anything out of any sense of heroism, nobility or fighting for a greater cause. The closest he came was going toe to toe with Kylo Ren but even that was about saving the girl he was crushing on. Finn never made the heroic conversion before he was rendered comatose and he starts off in the TLJ in the same place he was and grows from there.

The poor characterization and lack of growth for his character falls squarely on JJ Abrams and Lawrence Kasdan for the way they wrote him in The Force Awakens. At least with The Last Jedi, Rian Johnson developed Finn, Poe and Rey.

Getting back to Canto Bight, the other main point of that sequence was the bit about Rose inspiring the stable kids. One of the themes of the film was about not pinning all your hopes on being rescued by the heroes of the past and sowing the seeds for the future. This was embodied in the new trilogy by the loss of Luke, Han and most of the Resistance. They need to draw in new blood and inspire rebellion against the First Order if they are going to defeat them and this sequence demonstrates that. 

People who complain that the Canto Bight sequences were a waste of time clearly missed the point of it.
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 26 December 2018 at 5:29pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

The point of Canto Bight was to show letís free animals & leave the children as slaves.
Which sums up my frustration with that movie, or one of my frustrations anyway.
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Stephen Churay
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Posted: 27 December 2018 at 6:19am | IP Logged | 22 post reply

Has anybody discussed that Admiral Holdo
going to lightspeed, destroying the entire
First Order Fleet breaks Star Wars. If
everyone knows about this tactic, and
judging by Hux, they do, you could've
bought down the Empire with minimal loss
of life. Forget all the X-Wings and forget
the Rebel Fleet, The Empire could've been
taken down by two good size cruisers.
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 27 December 2018 at 9:12pm | IP Logged | 23 post reply

Christopher: At least with The Last Jedi, Rian Johnson developed Finn, Poe
and Rey.

**

Doing it badly does not, in my book, receive some kind of compliment for "at
least trying."

The development they received in the first movie (TFA) was not very deep, but
it was not very difficult to see where it was going.

Except for Rian Johnson, apparently ;-)
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