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Topic: Star Wars Ep. VIII:The Last Jedi - SPOILERS begin Pg 12 Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Jim Muir
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Posted: 29 July 2018 at 1:18pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Agreed Paul.

I find it unfathomable that Disney would launch a Trilogy with no over-
arching plan, just letting each director write and direct their own thing.
Rian Johnson clearly didnít like a lot of the questions TFA raised so
chose to negate them as fast as possible in favour of his own vision.

I can only assume now Abrams is back in the driving seat heíll be doing
everything he can to steer it back to his original ideas.
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 29 July 2018 at 6:09pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Jim: I can only assume now Abrams is back in the driving seat heíll be doing everything he can to steer it back to his original ideas.

**

Makes you wonder why we don't let two people fight over the steering wheel more on buses and airplanes and stuff. It's just workin' out so gosh darned great!

(not aimed at you, Jim-- just jumping off from your observation)

Edited by Mark Haslett on 29 July 2018 at 6:11pm
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 29 July 2018 at 7:10pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

What will happen when Luke and Kylo meet.....they never will
------------------------
Given Mark Hamill is in the cast announced for the next film, this kind of begs the question: how do you know they won't? 
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Adam Hutchinson
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Posted: 30 July 2018 at 12:48pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

And they had some pretty meaningful interaction in the finale of film;
just as he and Leia and Leia and Han did (if too briefly some peopleís
liking).
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Richard Stevens
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Posted: 05 August 2018 at 7:23am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Yeah. The whole point of the ending was Luke helps his friends without violence, hopefully teaching his student one last lesson.
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Patrick Mallon
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Posted: 11 August 2018 at 5:22pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

There is a score-only version of TLJ available...I believe it is only available with the digital download version...

http://www.talkhouse.com/score-version-last-jedi-revelation/

Since I am a glutton for punishment, I started to watch it...yeah, even with out the dialogue, nothing can fix this turd...
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Steven Brake
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Posted: 29 August 2018 at 10:05am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

I watched ROTJ on telly on Sunday, and all I could think about is how the principled young man who repeatedly tries NOT to fight his own father and insists that there's still good in him will become an embittered old fart who considers killing his own nephew while he sleeps.

The prequel trilogy may have undermined Darth Vader as a villain by showing how he began, but The Last Jedi has absolutely shat on Luke as a hero by showing what he became.
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 29 August 2018 at 5:05pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Ah, but Steven, they think they were being true to that principled young man who chose not to fight.
Because that is what they took away from those scenes.
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Adam Hutchinson
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Posted: 29 August 2018 at 6:30pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

I seem to remember Luke in Return of the Jedi being a principled
young hero who was so tempted by the Dark Side that he almost killed
his father but stopped himself. Seems pretty consistent with the
principled mature hero trying to rebuild the Jedi, who saw nothing but
darkness in his nephew and was tempted by the Dark Side to end that
threat before it got out of control, but stopped himself.
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Shaun Barry
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Posted: 30 August 2018 at 10:11am | IP Logged | 10 post reply


To paraphrase an old George Carlin bit:

"Lucas didn't write it, Luke didn't do it!"



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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 30 August 2018 at 2:55pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Adam: I seem to remember Luke in Return of the Jedi being a principled
young hero who was so tempted by the Dark Side that he almost killed
his father but stopped himself. Seems pretty consistent with the
principled mature hero trying to rebuild the Jedi, who saw nothing but
darkness in his nephew and was tempted by the Dark Side to end that
threat before it got out of control, but stopped himself.

**

Yeah, if you leave out the part where he chose to believe in the good inside
Vader, laid down his weapon and faced the Emperor with nothing but his
faith in Vader's goodness.

Then, leave out the part where that faith turns out to be totally correct,
leading to the defeat of the Emperor and restoration of freedom to the
galaxy.

Aside from the entire point of this character's journey in ROTJ being
ignored, Luke's portrayal in the Last Jedi is spot on.
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 30 August 2018 at 3:13pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Richard: Yeah. The whole point of the ending was Luke helps his friends
without violence, hopefully teaching his student one last lesson.

**

Really? If so, it's a point which didn't need to be made to anyone who saw
ROTJ. And it's presented in TLJ with the clarity and dynamism of a mud
puddle.

Luke "shows up" from across the galaxy through astral projection to delay
the enemy and provide cover for his friends' escape -- but only after
refusing to join them when he could have made a difference. This is one last
lesson for his pupil about making a difference without violence.

Like THAT is the lesson Ben is going to take away from receiving one last
humiliating defeat at the hands of a mentor who almost killed him and then
abandoned the entire galaxy so the First Order could take over.

Whatever. If this was all a big lesson for Ben, the so be it. I just wish it
hadn't been so damn boring!
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Steven Brake
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Posted: 30 August 2018 at 3:52pm | IP Logged | 13 post reply

Conceding from the outset that the SW mythology as it evolved wasn't how it was originally conceived, the SW trilogies became the story of Anakin's fall and how he is redeemed by Luke, who becomes the symbol of hope that his father was supposed to have been.

The sequel trilogy (or whatever we're meant to call it) totally undoes this, not only dumping over the original film, and trilogy, but making nonsense of more recent spin-offs like The Clone Wars or Rebels. How is the audience meant to regard the infant or young Luke as the ultimate saviour of the universe given that it's now canon that he's going to become an embittered recluse?

Luke's gone from the optimistic character who learned from his father's mistakes to a bitter misanthrope who repeats Kenobi's failure. Why was it necessary to do this? What does it add to the story?

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Peter Martin
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Posted: 30 August 2018 at 7:17pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

Star Wars has always reflected some elements of Dune. In that series of stories, Paul Atreides pulls back from the pull of destiny, because he sees ultimate disaster in that destiny, in the spread of a religion founded in his name that will lead to a galactic jihad. I think there's some element of that in Luke pulling back from the Force, seeing that embracing the Jedi religion may actually spark more bad than it does good.

To answer why it was necessary, I don't think such a question can have a sensible answer for any story. A story is the way the storyteller chooses to tell it. What does it add to the story? All sorts. Does it irk you? Then it has added something to the story.
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 30 August 2018 at 7:22pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

To expound further, the Luke in ROTJ that accepted mass-murdering Vader as still having good within him rang false for me, compared to the Luke that we were originally introduced to in Star Wars.

The Luke in The Last Jedi was not fully satisfying for me, but the way he went out seemed pretty good. The man went to another level. He managed to find some measure of victory that fully embraced the Force and was totally peaceful. I think it was, in a certain way, badass. 


Edited by Peter Martin on 30 August 2018 at 7:23pm
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Steven Brake
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Posted: 31 August 2018 at 9:59am | IP Logged | 16 post reply

@Peter Martin - SW owes more to Flash Gordon and the RKO serials of the 30s and 40s. It is, or was, a fairy tale in space with princes and princesses, knights and villains, with good and evil strongly characterised and at odds with one another. The Rebels are Good, and the Empire is Bad. Bringing in moral nuance is massively overthinking what SW is, or ought to be.

I don't disagree that Lucas's making Vader the fallen Anakin was a bad idea, not least because it makes Kenobi a liar, or a sophist; but at least it did allow for some sense of optimism - even Vader can be redeemed, and, by sacrificing himself, can save his son and the galaxy.

Luke's death in LTJ was moving, but there's nothing like the same sense of sacrifice or hope in Vader's death, or the wry humour and self-sacrifice of Kenobi (I love Guinness's wee smile as he looks from Luke to Vader, then puts up his lightsabre!).
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 31 August 2018 at 3:33pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

I confess that I'm confused how Luke's death in TLJ even works.

This led to the death being even less moving for than it would have been if
Kylo Ren's massive walker-fire attack had simply obliterated him.

When he survived that, it confused me.

Then he was revealed to be astral-projecting or something like that. Oh.
Didn't see that coming. Not sure what it means...

Then the Rebels escape. The astral-projecting ends. Ok.

And then he dies. --Huh? Ok.

Just as easily could have been -- and then he doesn't die. We didn't know
the rules, so there's no "need" for him to die. He just died. Whatevs.

This movie was such a massive face-plant-on-concrete misfire that it feels
less like a movie to me and more like one of those blown Super Bowl plays,
like Seahawks 2015. Just head-shaking stuff.
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Thomas Woods
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Posted: 31 August 2018 at 3:41pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

And then he dies. --Huh? Ok.

---

And his robot hand faded with him.


Now that I have seen more of the movie through reviews,
I am thankful I never went to see it and sit through it.
It is full of bad ideas and a real lack of knowing what
made the originals so great.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 31 August 2018 at 9:47pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

He had to take his robot hand with him when he faded to prevent Cyberdyne Systems from using it to reverse engineer a new line of Jedis, thereby restarting the series of events they had all just managed to prevent.

Edited by Brian Hague on 31 August 2018 at 9:48pm
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 01 September 2018 at 1:58am | IP Logged | 20 post reply

If you look closely, the hand is slightly different than what they installed in ESB, which I understand is on purpose as a clue that everything in the new trilogy is really a fever-dream Luke is having during the operation of having his new hand installed, but before he actually sees what he gets.

He's dreaming of a world where Han and Leia are divorced ("she was mine first!")and where he gets to quit all this Jedi stuff and not face Vader or even face that Vader is his father (instead, he dreams the real badguy is Han and Leia's kid ("I knew they shouldn't have got together! She's mine, I tells ya!").

So the proper order of the Saga is to fit these new movies in right between the part of ESB where they fly the wounded Luke away from Bespin and right before he gets his new hand revealed and tested.

It's really an open secret. Kind of like how Picard never leaves the Nexus in "Generations".
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Jozef Brandt
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Posted: 28 September 2018 at 3:14pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply


I usually say this to Emery, but "Don't give them any ideas Mark!" 

I kept thinking of Dr. Ball in Robot Chicken Star Wars: "She died of a broken heart?  What's your degree in, poetry!?" 

The big reveal that I couldn't believe is that Rian Johnson is Mr. Plinkett's son! 
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Conrad Teves
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Posted: 02 October 2018 at 9:34am | IP Logged | 22 post reply

Submitted without comment:

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Bill Collins
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Posted: 02 October 2018 at 11:05am | IP Logged | 23 post reply

I was very disappointed in the film, but couldn`t be
arsed to complain online, other than here and with no
agenda political or otherwise!

Edited to add...strange that those pesky Russians didn`t
do the same with Infinity War.Mind you, if initial
feedback is true, it will give the people behind Venom a
scapegoat!

Edited by Bill Collins on 02 October 2018 at 11:07am
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Charles Valderrama
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Posted: 07 November 2018 at 5:26pm | IP Logged | 24 post reply

In response to criticism from a fan who proclaimed it "bad storytelling to change Luke so much,"  Rian Johnson said that Luke in The Last Jedi is 100% consistent with his character from the original trilogy:

"Hot take: Luke is in fact 100% consistent with his character (not the way heís described in marketing blurbs, but his actual, based-on-his-words-and-actions character) from the OT. Iíll be at the bar if you need me," the writer/director wrote on Twitter.

-C!
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 07 November 2018 at 11:29pm | IP Logged | 25 post reply

That is in fact a verified 100% certified, A++, through and through, bulls**t
statement.

But whatever.
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