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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4411
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Posted: 06 April 2018 at 7:44pm | IP Logged | 1
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Matt: The video I linked to above, though, nearly perfectly deals with my own criticisms of, well, the criticisms from those that did hate the film.
**
I only got as far as "Killing Snoke was like, um, clever misdirection because he was, like, supposed to be our big generic bad guy..."
Snoke remains the entire reason this "trilogy" is happening. Somehow, after ROTJ, a "First Order" arose and took over the galaxy-- more completely than the Empire. Even the destruction of its Starkiller has not stopped his death-like grip.
But, as the young lady points out, he was dispatched as if his entire presence was a misdirection. ...Except it can't be because he is the only reason there is a First Order ...which is still the badguy ...and for which there is still no explanation. ...and this is a storytelling flaw to be shrugged off?
Ok. Shrug.
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Adam Hutchinson Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 15 December 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4452
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Posted: 07 April 2018 at 6:58am | IP Logged | 2
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Indeed.
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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4411
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Posted: 07 April 2018 at 3:48pm | IP Logged | 3
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Adam: Indeed.
When you have nothing left to say, but have to say something?
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Jason Scott Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 06 August 2012 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 785
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Posted: 07 April 2018 at 5:14pm | IP Logged | 4
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I use 'Indeed' a lot. But I blame Stargate SG1 for that! ;)
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Adam Hutchinson Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 15 December 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4452
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Posted: 08 April 2018 at 7:29am | IP Logged | 5
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It’s more like throwing my hands up and thinking, “ok there’s no middle ground to be found here.”
Listen, I love Last Jedi. I think it’s one of the best, if not the best Star Wars movie but even after I first saw it on opening night I also thought “Wow its gonna be divisive. I can see why some people aren’t going to like it.” And that’s cool. To each their own.
My huge pet peeve, though, is when people who don’t like it (or anything else really) treat their dislike as an objective truth and the opinion that it is, and don’t accept when fans present their equally personally, valid opinions.
So, you don’t like Last Jedi; it didn’t meet your expectations and apparently have a number of problems with Lucasfilm’s choices regarding characters and plot. Got it. I, and many people (professional critics and “comman” fans) disagree.
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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4411
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Posted: 08 April 2018 at 11:10am | IP Logged | 6
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My huge pet peeve, though, is when people who don’t like it (or anything else really) treat their dislike as an objective truth and the opinion that it is, and don’t accept when fans present their equally personally, valid opinions.
**
The middle ground occurs when there is discussion. Posting links and misrepresenting them is not discussion. Neither is responding to a lengthy post about Snoke with a shrug (indeed).
Your opinions are valid. I'd love to hear it some day.
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Adam Hutchinson Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 15 December 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4452
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Posted: 08 April 2018 at 11:38am | IP Logged | 7
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QUOTE:
Snoke remains the entire reason this "trilogy" is happening. Somehow, after ROTJ, a "First Order" arose and took over the galaxy-- more completely than the Empire. Even the destruction of its Starkiller has not stopped his death-like grip. |
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Other than being the organizing force for the First Order which hasn’t taken over the galaxy at the beginning of the new trilogy, it’s a military junta from the Outer Rim that the Republic doesn’t believe is a threat, Snoke doesn’t seem to be the entire reason for the new trilogy anymore than the Death Star is the entire reason for the Original Trilogy. To em, and apparently Lucasfilm, the entire reason for the new trilogy (other than $$$) is the new generation of heroes and villains moving the conflict in the galaxy forward and learning from and moving beyond the previous generation’s successes and failures.
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Adam Hutchinson Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 15 December 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4452
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Posted: 08 April 2018 at 11:43am | IP Logged | 8
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QUOTE:
Posting links and misrepresenting them is not discussion |
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I’m sorry you feel I gave your feeling short shrift but I didn’t misrepresent those links. I chose them specifically because they each addressed a part of what you had said you never saw in a positive review. They may not use the exact words or phrases you’re looking for but they all address what you’re looking for in some way or another whether you acknowledge that or not.
Even if they didn’t, I’m not sure what your point is? Are you thinking that these are disengnous positive reviews? They should given less wait than the opinions of a, like it or not, minority that’s been very vocal in their dislike?
You obviously have very strong opinions on this movie and the perceived damage it’s done to the franchise. Cool. I disagree.
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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4411
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Posted: 08 April 2018 at 3:46pm | IP Logged | 9
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Adam: Other than being the organizing force for the First Order which hasn’t taken over the galaxy at the beginning of the new trilogy, it’s a military junta from the Outer Rim that the Republic doesn’t believe is a threat, Snoke doesn’t seem to be the entire reason for the new trilogy anymore than the Death Star is the entire reason for the Original Trilogy
**
So, other than being the organizational force for the entire First Order, the only villains in these movies and the whole reason there is a rebellion, Snoke is nothing more than a space station built by and for the Emperor? What nonsense is that?
In The Last Jedi, the "Rebellion" has been crushed to a literal handful of people and no one else in the galaxy answers Princess Leia's call for help. What more do they have to do to take over the galaxy?
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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4411
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Posted: 08 April 2018 at 3:49pm | IP Logged | 10
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Adam: I’m sorry you feel I gave your feeling short shrift but I didn’t misrepresent those links.
** I posted that no one in these online discussions of this movie defends it by hailing the plot, thrills, etc. You replied with a bunch of articles which vaguely mention these points within the mix of their positive review. Apples meet oranges.
If one of the articles was "This movie is awesome because of its awesome plot" that would be more like a response to my point. But no one ever does. Which is my point.
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Adam Hutchinson Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 15 December 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4452
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Posted: 08 April 2018 at 4:44pm | IP Logged | 11
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Head meet wall.
This is my last response to this particular and peculiar criticism.
Many people, myself included, like this movie because of the plot, the actions of characters old and new, and because the action-y parts of it are thrilling. Which again, those reviews I linked all say in on form or another; along with the other reasons they liked the movie. I don’t know what specific choice of words would satisfy you but here, as my last words on this nonsense, from the Guardian review:
[quote] The Last Jedi gives you an explosive sugar rush of spectacle. It’s a film that buzzes with belief in itself and its own mythic universe – a euphoric certainty that I think no other movie franchise has. And there is no provisional hesitation or energy dip of the sort that might have been expected between episodes seven and nine.[\quote]
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Adam Hutchinson Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 15 December 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4452
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Posted: 08 April 2018 at 4:51pm | IP Logged | 12
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QUOTE:
So, other than being the organizational force for the entire First Order, the only villains in these movies and the whole reason there is a rebellion, Snoke is nothing more than a space station built by and for the Emperor? What nonsense is that? |
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Correct. Snoke is the driving force who’s purpose and action initiate the action of the trilogy; buildings the First Order, corrupting Ben Solo, inspiring the birth of the Resistance, and so on. He’s served his purpose. Now the real movers of the plot and themes of this trilogy (Kylo, Rey, Finn, Poe, etc.) step forward to bring the trilogy to its climax and resolution. Otherwise Snoke would’ve simply been Palpatine 2.0 and we’ve seen that story before.
QUOTE:
In The Last Jedi, the "Rebellion" has been crushed to a literal handful of people and no one else in the galaxy answers Princess Leia's call for help. What more do they have to do to take over the galaxy? |
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You’re talking about the status quo 2/3s of the way through the trilogy. At the beginning of Force Awakens the First Order isn’t viewed as a threat by the galaxy which is why Leia formed the Resistance separate from the Republic. After it crippled the Republic with Starkiller it then blitzs the galaxy and starts seizing territory and preys upon the galaxy’s lack of hope to start cementing its hold.
Edited by Adam Hutchinson on 08 April 2018 at 5:01pm
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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4411
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Posted: 08 April 2018 at 7:00pm | IP Logged | 13
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Adam: Head meet wall.
**
Me: no one makes a case for why the plot and thrills of this movie are what make it so great.
You: I like the plot. Lots of people like the plot.
NOT you: The awesome plot is exactly why I like it. The plot is so awesome because XYZ.
You: I'm so frustrated that you don't take these examples of other people saying the movie is great as evidence that they think it's great because the plot is so great.
Me: That's not what they're saying.
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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4411
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Posted: 08 April 2018 at 7:11pm | IP Logged | 14
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Adam: Otherwise Snoke would’ve simply been Palpatine 2.0 and we’ve seen that story before.
**
He is Palpatine 2.0. The fact that he's dead didn't change that. His mysterious backstory is still the only reason there is a "First Order". And we still don't know what that is. So, as you point out, we're 2/3 through the trilogy-- and still have no idea why any of this is happening. You may like these choices, but people who don't are not wrong to point out what bad form that is. Now we get the neat new way that Kylo Ren runs the First Order... which is just like how Snoke ran it. Neato!
Adam: You’re talking about the status quo 2/3s of the way through the trilogy. At the beginning of Force Awakens the First Order isn’t viewed as a threat by the galaxy which is why Leia formed the Resistance separate from the Republic.
** And how does any of this affect the point that Snoke is the villain without whom the story of this trilogy would not exist?
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Bill Collins Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 26 May 2005 Location: England Posts: 9647
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Posted: 09 April 2018 at 10:19am | IP Logged | 15
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Just watched it for the first time, it was...ok. Adam Driver`s gait and hair made me think Keanu Ren! Who was filming Maz Kanata? Did she take a film crew with her? Sometimes a steam iron is just a steam iron! The Porgs were very cheesy,poorly animated, and the humour involving them was cringeworthy.
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