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Topic: Star Wars Ep. VIII:The Last Jedi - SPOILERS begin Pg 12 Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Robert Kowalewski II
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Posted: 26 March 2018 at 7:35pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Pick up my copy tomorrow, maybe watch it Wednesday...
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Charles Valderrama
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Posted: 02 April 2018 at 3:28pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Writer/director Rian Johnson confirmed that the decisions he made writing THE LAST JEDI that sparked the most negative reactions are some of the moments in the film he's most proud of - “There were death threats. It’s balanced by a few things — 90% of the stuff I got online was not only lovely and encouraging but phenomenally thoughtful. Fans would send me essays on the movie. The other 10% is just loud and gets amplified."

I don't condone death threats, but Rian Johnson seems pretty arrogant to believe he should be proud of the moments fans felt he got wrong.

Seems he really hasn't read thru some of the more reasonable criticisms thrown at him.

-C!


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Richard Stevens
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Posted: 03 April 2018 at 3:57pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

How's that arrogant?

He made them before fans saw them. No reason that he shouldn't be proud of them if they are what he set out to do.
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 03 April 2018 at 7:48pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

9 out of 10 people sent him positive feedback. 1 out of 10 were negative, but louder and more aggressive than the positive.

So based on that, when you say 'the moments fans felt he got wrong' are moments that only a small minority think he got wrong.

Not exactly the height of arrogance to be proud of a moment that 9/10 people were 'lovely and encouraging' about.


Edited by Peter Martin on 03 April 2018 at 7:48pm
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Charles Valderrama
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Posted: 04 April 2018 at 7:52am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

See, I think Johnson is doing a spin on that 90%... I've seen his twitter feed and I'd say '90% lovely and encouraging but phenomenally thoughtful' is a bit of a stretch.

As I said, seems he really hasn't read thru the more reasonable criticisms expressed to him. Plus, I'm saying he's arrogant (NOW) to say that (NOW) he's proud of decisions he made that made a lot of fans sour on the franchise. If his goal was to deviate from what the first film set up and divide fan opinions going forward, then mission accomplished.

-C!
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 04 April 2018 at 9:32am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

You quoted Johnson. Seems like backpedalling to quote it as evidence of his arrogance then subsequently say it's just spin when its pointed out that what his saying is a reference to a small, vocal minority.

I'm willing to take his words for it that there is a large majority of good feedback for The Last Jedi outweighing the bad, simply because if anyone is going to know what correspondence he's received, it's going to be him.

If you're reading through his entire twitter feed and totting up what is bad and good pertaining to one of his films, I think you may need to get some perspective.

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Charles Valderrama
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Posted: 04 April 2018 at 11:47am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

So, you actually think Johnson wouldn't put a spin on things?

Honestly, I have only skimmed his twitter feed, but there are enough comments/articles to support my statement.... heck, even Mark Hamill had mixed emotions with some of Johnson's decisions. I have no reason to backpedal as he's done a lot of (unnecessary?) explaining since the film's release which is comparable to Zack Snyder defending all his choices in BvS... and we know how THAT turned out.

Of course, you're entitled to believe Johnson and if you enjoyed his decisions in THE LAST JEDI, that's great.

Luckily for him, Johnson is moving on to a totally BLANK slate with the new trilogy so we'll have have a whole new & fresh perspective on the franchise in a few years for the newer SW fans to embrace... or not.

-C!

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Peter Martin
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Posted: 04 April 2018 at 1:53pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Do I think Johnson is on his own side? Of course.

Do I think he's essentially telling the truth by saying the vitriolic criticism was from a noisy minority? Yes.

Do I think he deserves some opprobrium for saying that he realised that things people were angry out about were things he was proud of? No.

I think we can allow him to be proud of the film he created, whether we like that film or not. No?




Edited by Peter Martin on 04 April 2018 at 1:53pm
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Charles Valderrama
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Posted: 04 April 2018 at 4:12pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Well, when you put it like THAT.... sure, he can be proud of the film he created. I didn't mean to imply he shouldn't be... just felt he downplayed the negative responds from fans. (No doubt this film has become the most divisive episode among Star Wars fans.)

Perhaps my use of the word "arrogant" was harsh... but I do think
his bold moves within this established franchise may hurt STAR WARS in the long term.

-C!


Edited by Charles Valderrama on 04 April 2018 at 4:13pm
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Richard Stevens
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Posted: 04 April 2018 at 8:39pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

The only way he hurt it is by not coming back for IX. Now we're stuck with JJ Into Darkness.
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Tim O'Neill
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Posted: 04 April 2018 at 11:00pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply



I have now seen the movie three times (twice in the theater and once on blu-ray), and it gets better each time.  I think Johnson made some bold moves and pushed the boundaries of both character and story.  It's an amazing film.



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Joie Simmons
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Posted: 05 April 2018 at 8:46am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

I've seen it twice. I had mixed feelings after seeing it in the theater
but it really grew on me and fast. The second time at home I
thoroughly enjoyed it. I came across this quote from Johnson the
other day and agree with it 100%:

"When people ask me, ‘Don’t you think people are going to get sick
of Star Wars movies?’ to me that question indicates that they’re
thinking of Star Wars movies as a museum exhibit that is wheeled
out once a year so you can say, ‘Oh, I loved that thing. Oh, I
remember that thing!’ And yes, if Star Wars is that, people are going
to get sick of it really quickly.

But if Star Wars are great new movies that are exciting and fresh,
and that challenge you and surprise you and make you feel things
and engage you the way that those original movies did—but always
taking you to new places, both in the galaxy and emotionally—that’s
never going to get old. That’s what it’s all about."
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 05 April 2018 at 11:01am | IP Logged | 13 post reply

Joe: But if Star Wars are great new movies that are exciting and fresh,and that challenge you and surprise you and make you feel things...

**

If... if... if... Yes, it would be nice IF those things happened. Those things did not happen in Last Jedi...
A Star Wars story which hinges on characters getting a parking ticket and landing in jail with a code-breaker. Is that what "exciting and fresh" means? GIANT COINCIDENCES?

A main plot about the Rebels driving their space ship ten miles an hour faster than the Empire Rip-Off space ship. That challenges me alright, challenges me not to keep yelling "What the f**k is this crap?" in the theater.

A mysterious Empire Rip-off leader, whose secrets are the sole reason these villains have been able to rise, dies at the hand of his apprentice who shortly later decides to carry on the exact same mission of his master. Is that kind of lazy writing really engaging to anyone?

And on and on and on--

This movie is so badly executed in its own terms that any talk of it being a way to keep Star Wars from getting stale has to be seen as a dodge. A boring plot populated with boring characters all hammering home a hackneyed theme and never actually dealing with specific character or plot problems in logical ways is not something to celebrate.

The bad decisions in this movie are so blatantly and fundamentally bad that I predict it will one day be generally considered worse than the prequels.

Edited by Mark Haslett on 05 April 2018 at 11:03am
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Shaun Barry
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Posted: 05 April 2018 at 2:43pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply


My 48-year old cousin--a good-looking bohemian type, who's been quite the ladies' man most of his life (point being:  NOT your stereotypical SW nerd)--tried to send me a link this morning to a site with an article entitled something like, "How THE LAST JEDI Helped Ruin STAR WARS for the Rest of My Life," or somesuch...

Didn't even bother clicking on it.  I just can't get into or understand the mindset.



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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 05 April 2018 at 3:39pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

Internet conversation about this movie tends to revolve in this weird way.

One poster critiques the movie.

The next poster criticizes a vague group of over-reacting negative fans who are complaining that the movie ruined Star Wars and is being unfairly trashed just because it didn't follow some specific Star Wars cliche.

I've never seen anyone who likes the film actually make the case that it has an excellent plot, thrilling adventure, deep and involving characters, rich themes or actual enhancements to the world of Star Wars.
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Shaun Barry
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Posted: 05 April 2018 at 4:46pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply


Oh, it's not a great STAR WARS movie.  More of a noble, odd failure.  But as I noted in the Movies thread, I'll watch it again before any of the Prequels.

If people hate it, that's fine... but "ruining STAR WARS?"  I don't buy it, much like how I don't subscribe to the idea of the Prequels ruining the Original Trilogy.  I can't stand the Prequels, either... but I also IGNORE them!

Makes life so much easier!  :)



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Brian Hague
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Posted: 05 April 2018 at 6:46pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

I haven't seen this film yet, but I nevertheless want to hit the "like" button on Mark's post just on the basis of how it addresses what passes for reasonable discourse in these sad times.

Nicely observed and well stated, sir.

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Richard Stevens
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Posted: 05 April 2018 at 8:21pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

You don't have to love The Last Jedi. It's ok to be wrong sometimes!
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Adam Hutchinson
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Posted: 06 April 2018 at 9:19am | IP Logged | 19 post reply


 QUOTE:

I've never seen anyone who likes the film actually make the case that it
has an excellent plot, thrilling adventure, deep and involving characters,
rich themes or actual enhancements to the world of Star Wars.


Then you’re
probably
not looking
very
hard
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 06 April 2018 at 12:03pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

Adam: Then you’re
probably
not looking
very
hard

**

I think you're attempting to direct me to what I asked for. I think you failed. I just read these links and none of these do what you seem to say they will do. They are just positive reviews--p like the other positive reviews I have read. Unless you want to point out something I'm not seeing, none of these reviews make any case for the actual merits of the plot, thrills, characters, themes or Star-Wars enhancements of Last Jedi.

They praise the way expectations are dodged. They proclaim the film great. The themes that get called out involve the film being "a meditation on sequels and franchise properties" or on not finding what you expect to find. These are called out for praise, but not for their depth. They are basically all the "enhancement" to Star Wars that anyone ever points to. Why this is an enhancement is presented as self-evident. Being unpredictable is its own reward-- regardless of whether it fits well with what came before or not. This, they argue, is all the more commendable because Star Wars has become repetitive in their opinion.

None of these reviews actually make a case for why this plot was excellent or particularly thrilling or how these characters are particularly deep (many of these make apologies for obvious plot and character short-comings by shrugging them off as part of the deal when you make a Star Wars film).

Happy to be wrong if you can point it out, but please don't just post another sent of links.

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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 06 April 2018 at 2:16pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

Brian Hague: I haven't seen this film yet, but I nevertheless want to hit the "like" button on Mark's post...
**
Mr. Hague, it's very nice to get a "like" from one of my favorite posters on this terrific John Byrne Forum. I've hit "like" in my mind on too many of your posts to remember!

The following is included to discourage thread drift: "Star Wars Ep VIII: The Last Jedi!"
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Adam Hutchinson
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Posted: 06 April 2018 at 2:59pm | IP Logged | 22 post reply

Every single one of those reviews addresses what you claim to have
not seen addressed in any review; a fast moving plot that reveals new
obstacles as old ones are resolved, praising new characters (Holdo and
Rose in particular), lauding Mark Hammil’s performance, and praising
how it deals with the theme of growing beyond the past, learning
through failure, and that objects/traditions only have the value we
assign to them, not an inherent value. So unless you want a review that
says “this plot is particularly thrilling because...”, “these characters are
deep because...”, I’m not sure what you’re looking for, or the point that
you’re trying to make.
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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 06 April 2018 at 3:07pm | IP Logged | 23 post reply

Top Ten Worst Reasons You Hated The Last Jedi.


I'm not one of the fans who hated "The Last Jedi," though I get why some fans do hate it. The video I linked to above, though, nearly perfectly deals with my own criticisms of, well, the criticisms from those that did hate the film.


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Brian Hague
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Posted: 06 April 2018 at 6:41pm | IP Logged | 24 post reply

Mark, that's very kind of you. Thank you.

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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 06 April 2018 at 7:29pm | IP Logged | 25 post reply

Adam: So unless you want a review that
says “this plot is particularly thrilling because...”, “these characters are
deep because...”, I’m not sure what you’re looking for, or the point that
you’re trying to make.

**

None of these even explain what the plot is, much less praise it specifically for its excitement. Several of them specifically criticize the plot for its sagging middle and contrived coincidences. Rightly so.

You don't say where you quote those themes from, but the ones you list are hardly innovative or deep, are they?

Are those the reasons this movie is awesome to you? They are not the reason any of these reviews are positive.

Are Rose and Holdo what people point to when saying why this movie rocks? Not in my experience and not in these reviews.

There is wide praise of the film for tweaking Star Wars tropes. Overall positive reviews for the film are easy to find, but no one seems overly impressed when it comes to specifics of plot, character, theme or innovative new Star Wars stuff. General positivity, but no one says, for example, why the main plot of two ships racing to a distant planet is especially praise worthy or thrilling.

I think the reason why is obvious-- that is not a very thrilling or praise worthy plot. But somehow, one has to assume, the sum is greater than the parts. At least in some people's eyes.
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