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Topic: Star Wars Ep. VIII:The Last Jedi - SPOILERS begin Pg 12 Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Charles Valderrama
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Posted: 03 January 2018 at 2:10pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

There is an ongoing theme in Star Wars of student succumbing to the dark side. If we accept that isn't Luke's fault...

********

Yes, but the problem many have isn't who's fault, but that Luke would put himself in exile to die and NOT TRY to help defeat Snoke and the First Order. Is this the same Luke that left his training with Yoda to help his friends and confront Vader in ROTJ because he felt there was still good in him?? Even as an older man, hard to believe Luke wouldn't have a similar stance with his nephew... or at least his relationship with Leia & Han.

As for the film's obligation to set something up for the next film? When it's presented as chapter in a trilogy, (EPISODE VII) it obviously does.

-C!
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 03 January 2018 at 2:30pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

When it's presented as chapter in a trilogy, (EPISODE VII) it obviously does.
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I think we'll have to disagree on the necessity of setting things up for a next film (not sure why you say it's presented as Episode VII).

As I already alluded to, Star Wars has long been presented as Episode IV and is no less effective as part of the original trilogy for being a standalone tale. It's the single most important chapter in Star Wars.

A trilogy simply means there is strong connective tissue between the three works; it does not impose an obligation to have single plotlines bridge between films. If The Last Jedi had killed Rey, Finn, Ren and Poe, closing off any obvious avenue for continuing the story, then yes, I would see a problem. As it is, people have their underpants in a twist because there was no prolonging of the mystery of whose Rey's parents were or who Snoke is. Rey and Ren's story still has plenty of mileage, but Rian Johnson chose not to inflict some hanging plotline between movies -- which I can get behind. What I can't get behind is the suggestion that there is an obvious obligation to do so.
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 03 January 2018 at 2:42pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

 Is this the same Luke that left his training with Yoda to help his friends and confront Vader in ROTJ because he felt there was still good in him??
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No, it's not the same Luke. It's a much older Luke who has spent decades reflecting on the Force and wrestling with its impact on the galaxy. Not the impetuous Luke from Empire Strikes Back, who is willing to risk everything for his friends, nor the character with utter certainty in the good of the mass-murdering Vader from ROTJ (that for me rang a false note).

I don't behave or think in exactly the same way I did when I was 20 or 30 now that I'm in my 40s; why should Luke behave the same as he did when he was in his 20s when he is in his 60s?

Edited to add: I would also add that if your problem with Luke is that he chose to run away and put himself into exile, your problem sounds more like it stems from The Force Awakens than The Last Jedi. Rian Johnson did have to play with the cards he'd been dealt, which meant  a Luke that had a student that had gone bad and then buggered off to an intentionally secret location.


Edited by Peter Martin on 03 January 2018 at 2:47pm
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John Popa
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Posted: 03 January 2018 at 3:56pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

I don't behave or think in exactly the same way I did when I was 20 or 30 now that I'm in my 40s; why should Luke behave the same as he did when he was in his 20s when he is in his 60s?


-----

Luke's a fictional character and you're not. It's kind of a big difference.
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Conrad Teves
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Posted: 03 January 2018 at 5:04pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

>>Luke's a fictional character and you're not. It's kind of a big difference.<<

It would  make sense to you if he acted like the whiny kid from Episode IV?


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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 03 January 2018 at 5:31pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Disney probably felt a need to take Luke down a few notches so that the focus would be on Rey. If so, they really shouldn't have used Luke or any of the original trilogy heroes at all. 
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 04 January 2018 at 6:33am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Luke's a fictional character and you're not. It's kind of a big difference.
------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------
This explains why he can do all those magic things, not a justification for complaining if the character reflects aspects we recognise from real life.

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John Popa
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Posted: 04 January 2018 at 8:25am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Characters in fiction have to behave based on storytelling logic and arc dramatically. If you're fine with Luke's arc, then justify it through the storytelling (as plenty of people have done, even if other people don't agree with the conclusion.)

Saying it's ok he's behaving differently because you're different in real life is meaningless. I couldn't say it makes storytelling sense that Luke quit being a Jedi Master because, hey, I'm an adult too and I quit a job once.
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 04 January 2018 at 10:36am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

My point was simply that as people age they tend to behave differently than in their youth, so what was on the screen mirrored something seen a thousand times in real life, not least in my own experience. Sorry if that doesn't tally with your little rules of what characters in fiction must do, but it doesn't seem a problem for me.
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Warren Scott
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Posted: 04 January 2018 at 8:31pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

I'm not against criticizing the film. I think it has flaws. But I've noticed some of the criticism is based on things the bad guy and others said, not necessarily things that are true.
Kylo Ren told Rey her parents were no one. He told her they should leave the past behind. Remember, all he wants is to rule the galaxy and he suggested Rey join him in doing that. Why should we trust him or assume the film's creators are saying we should leave "Star Wars" past behind?
Luke blamed himself for Kylo turning to the dark force but that doesn't mean he did. Perhaps he expedited it or perhaps Kylo already was evil (Hey, Darth Vader is his grandfather and hero.)and it was just a matter of time before he showed his true colors. Not that I'm condoning preemptive strikes.
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Charles Valderrama
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Posted: 04 January 2018 at 10:12pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

 Is this the same Luke that left his training with Yoda to help his friends and confront Vader in ROTJ because he felt there was still good in him??
------------------------------------------------------
No, it's not the same Luke. It's a much older Luke who has spent decades reflecting on the Force and wrestling with its impact on the galaxy. Not the impetuous Luke from Empire Strikes Back, who is willing to risk everything for his friends, nor the character with utter certainty in the good of the mass-murdering Vader from ROTJ (that for me rang a false note).

I don't behave or think in exactly the same way I did when I was 20 or 30 now that I'm in my 40s; why should Luke behave the same as he did when he was in his 20s when he is in his 60s?

********
I think you missed my point... it's NOT about Luke's behavior, but his bond to his friends and views about what he's been told about being a Jedi and trusting their teachings. When he "saw good" in Vader, it wasn't about forgiveness for mass-murder, but redemption for his sins.
There's been many examples of this same redemption in other stories/characters.

Luke shouldn't behave the same as he did when he was in his 20s... he should be older & wiser... AND confident from his success with taking down the Empire and overcoming the pull of the Dark Side and overcoming his father and the Emperor. That was no simple task and the legend he became shouldn't be undermined as it has been in this new chapter to serve the newer heroine... I believe there's room for both if written properly.
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Edited to add: I would also add that if your problem with Luke is that he chose to run away and put himself into exile, your problem sounds more like it stems from The Force Awakens than The Last Jedi. Rian Johnson did have to play with the cards he'd been dealt, which meant  a Luke that had a student that had gone bad and then buggered off to an intentionally secret location.

********
Rian Johnson had the opportunity to fix that story point, especially in a universe were everything isn't always as it seems. To put things bluntly,
I don't think the Jedi Luke had become at the end of ROTJ would grow old and bitter just because he blamed himself for young Ben turning to the Dark Side. It's almost like Johnson was content to have Luke into another Obi-Wan with a similar failure on his record, rather than blaze a new trail and make Luke better than that, as he should be.

-C!


Edited by Charles Valderrama on 04 January 2018 at 10:21pm
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Charles Valderrama
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Posted: 04 January 2018 at 10:25pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Characters in fiction have to behave based on storytelling logic and arc dramatically. If you're fine with Luke's arc, then justify it through the storytelling (as plenty of people have done, even if other people don't agree with the conclusion.) 

Saying it's ok he's behaving differently because you're different in real life is meaningless. I couldn't say it makes storytelling sense that Luke quit being a Jedi Master because, hey, I'm an adult too and I quit a job once.

**********
Agreed. Thanks for bringing that point up, John.

-C!
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 7:24am | IP Logged | 13 post reply

Saying it's ok he's behaving differently because you're different in real life is meaningless. I couldn't say it makes storytelling sense that Luke quit being a Jedi Master because, hey, I'm an adult too and I quit a job once.

**********
Agreed. Thanks for bringing that point up, John.
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For bringing up a straw man argument? I didn't talk about something specific like quitting a job, but the universal truth of people aging.

One man in his time plays many parts...
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 7:32am | IP Logged | 14 post reply

I also think we're into weird territory when you're saying the film has an obligation to set things up for a next film in the series, but at the same time should be overturning major things that were set up in the previous instalment.
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Charles Valderrama
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 10:02am | IP Logged | 15 post reply

Peter, if the film in question clearly states that it's a part of an ongoing saga, I'd consider that an obligation. Not sure why that's debatable.

Also, I merely suggested that since Lucas himself twisting story elements for the sake of the Original Trilogy, it would be fine to do it now if it served the character (Luke) and his legacy.

Finally, so there's a "universal truth" of people aging? I think that's a pretty broad statement to defend/debate the director's use of Luke for his this movie... something the actor himself had issues with.

-C!
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 10:51am | IP Logged | 16 post reply

It's debatable, because no one is saying the story can't continue, simply asking why unresolved storylines must be left dangling in one film for the next one, especially when you are advocating what has been left from a previous film should be undone. I can see why you can have storylines bridge in an ongoing saga; I just fail to see the undebatable imperative that a film in an ongoing saga fails if it ties off most of its loose ends within its own story.

And yes, there's a universal truth of aging. People are born, they age, they die. This does actually happen. You're debating this point?




Edited by Peter Martin on 05 January 2018 at 10:52am
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 11:42am | IP Logged | 17 post reply

Finally, so there's a "universal truth" of people aging? I think that's a pretty broad statement to defend/debate the director's use of Luke for his this movie... something the actor himself had issues with.

——

I think the idea that people can be less idealistic and more pragmatic as they get older is pretty non-controversial. It’s by no means a universal truth, but in the context of a discussion of why Luke doesn’t react the same way in his 20s as he does in his 60s, it’s a valid point. The Luke in TLJ is someone who has lost his faith. He thought that he was going to do a good thing for the Galaxy and revive the Jedi Order, but instead all he manages to do is enable a monster and get a bunch of his students killed. That kind of set back, especially after you thought that you’ve already achieved your “happily ever after” can be crippling. 

I mean people can disagree with the direction Luke was taken in, and to a partial extent I do, but I don’t think it’s an invalid one. 
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Charles Valderrama
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 12:02pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

And yes, there's a universal truth of aging. People are born, they age, they die. This does actually happen. You're debating this point?

*******
Nope, not debating... I said it was a BROAD statement.

I can agree with what Michael just stated tho'... it's pretty fair... just hard for me to get that Old Luke would've lost his faith so easily after what he had achieved in his past. Maybe there will be stories that'll explain the events more clearly.

-C!
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Adam Hutchinson
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 1:10pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply


 QUOTE:
Disney probably felt a need to take Luke down a few notches so
that the focus would be on Rey.


I doubt it and the reads as pretty ridiculous.

Part of the problem is that people are forgetting this isn’t a continuation
of the OT, necessarily, this is Rey, Finn, and Poe’s story guest-starring
Luke, Leia, and Han; much the same as Obi-Wannand Yoda guest
starred in the OT.
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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 1:49pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

 Michael Roberts wrote:
...The Luke in TLJ is someone who has lost his faith. He thought that he was going to do a good thing for the Galaxy and revive the Jedi Order, but instead all he manages to do is enable a monster and get a bunch of his students killed. That kind of set back, especially after you thought that you’ve already achieved your “happily ever after” can be crippling. ..

Heck, after watching the prequels -- which George Lucas wrote and directed, mind you -- I wasn't so enamored with the elitist faction known as The Jedi. I can understand that the more Luke learned about them, the less faith he'd put it their ways.
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Brian Rhodes
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 1:59pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

"That kind of set back, especially after you thought that you’ve already achieved your “happily ever after” can be crippling."

And yet, Luke Skywalker, after having helped the rebels destroy the Death Star and defeat the Empire...found out the Empire wasn't anywhere near defeated. Ends up living on an ice planet. Like that doesn't suck enough, he almost gets eaten there. Finds out Vader's his dad right after he cuts off his hand. His new bestie gets frozen in carbonite.

After all that...Luke rallies. He redeems Vader, defeats the Emperor, finds out why kissing Leia felt like kissing his sister, old and new friends and family find peace.

So, the guy can bounce back. He just chose not to.



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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 2:26pm | IP Logged | 22 post reply

So, the guy can bounce back. He just chose not to. 

—-

Except he did bounce back. 


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Adam Hutchinson
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 2:45pm | IP Logged | 23 post reply

Super heroiclly ta boot!
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Jozef Brandt
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 3:48pm | IP Logged | 24 post reply

Part of the problem is that people are forgetting this isn’t a continuation
of the OT, necessarily,
------------------------------------------------------------ ------------

Then why call it Episode 7, Episode 8, etc?  It's *supposed* to be a continuation.  Rian Johnson turned every dangling plot thread in the saga into a Maguffin just because he could, not because there was any organic plot reason to do it.

Abrams has no choice but to do an over-correction with Episode 9, and who knows how that will turn out.  Everything that the Star Wars story team conceived for the new canon, all of the approved novels, comics, and what-not, they all meshed beautifully with The Force Awakens, but there is zero in The Last Jedi that was similarly set up.  It felt more like the first 10 minutes of the Transformers movie where they kill off all the Gen 1 Autobots just to make kids want to buy the new toys. 

Shrug.
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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 6:26pm | IP Logged | 25 post reply

 Jozef Brandt wrote:
...
Then why call it Episode 7, Episode 8, etc?  It's *supposed* to be a continuation...


Okay, I know George Lucas has changed his own real-life story about how he intended STAR WARS to be, but as a child I recall him saying in interviews that the saga would span nine films, a prequel trilogy, and a sequel trilogy, and that the only constant would be the Droids, 3-CPO and R2-D2.

The whole notion that the series would be about the Skywalker clan only came later, as I understand it. Greg Kirkman and others more versed in the production history than I am can correct me if I am wrong.

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