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Brian Hague Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006 Posts: 8515
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Posted: 11 December 2016 at 12:19pm | IP Logged | 1
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There's much to recommend both runs. Personally, those early issues with Wolfman were crucial to cementing my enjoyment of the FF and Marvel in general. Prior to those, I was strictly a DC reader and remain so largely today. But hokey smokes! An evil version of the FF, the team-up with Spider-man, the Search for Galactus, and the epic battle against the Sphinx! Those comics stuck with me. I could not believe how completely perfect his returning to the title seemed to me a few years later or how much I was looking forward to the book coming out. Yes, we weren't going to be getting anymore Byrne/Claremont X-Men, but that wasn't going to be happening anyway. That Marvel was turning over what a flagship title to someone with so few writing credits was incredible to me. I was anticipating those coming issues like nothing else.
All that being said, JB's X-Men issues are absolutely crucial to the structure and history of that team in a way that his FF just aren't. If there had never been a JB FF we wouldn't have the Fall of Galactus, Frankie Raye as Nova, Terror in a Tiny Town, the She-Hulk on the team, but we would have Stan & Jack to build upon in the same way JB built his stories upon that bedrock.
What are the X-Men without the Savage Land series, Dark Phoenix, and Days of Future Past? Even today, those form an underpinning to the team so very different from Stan & Jack's original conception that there really wouldn't be much else to work with lacking those.
Using that gauge, I'd go with the X-Men over the FF, but it's a narrow margin. Also, my enjoyment of the FF title tailed off considerably towards the end of JB's run whereas the more abrupt departure from the X-Men never left that aftertaste, ending with a spectacularly entertaining issue with Kitty living up to her innate Sigourney Weaver-ishness early in life.
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Jeff Scott Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 November 2016 Location: United States Posts: 238
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Posted: 11 December 2016 at 12:31pm | IP Logged | 2
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When I look back upon the greatness of the Fantastic Four, with no exception, the world's greatest comic magazine...how can it be that today this isn't the biggest box office success over the Avengers & Guardians of the Galaxy movies?
I find it sad when a company cannot seem to get things right!
LOL, I find that the 1994 (UNRELEASED) FF film is better than anything that has come after.
Why don't these fools just ask John Byrne to produce/direct the next FF movie, then we can be assured of a faithful movie true to the Lee/Kirby/Byrne vision?
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Brian Hague Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006 Posts: 8515
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Posted: 11 December 2016 at 12:32pm | IP Logged | 3
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My thoughts on the X-Men really taking off after Byrne left, I'm reminded of Marvel's approach of saturating the stands with Kirby reprint titles once Kirby went to DC. There were more Marvel titles with Kirby art during that period than there were DC ones, with little reason for the casual reader to discern between the two.
Once JB left the X-Men, the age of the TPB reprint came into being and the fan press was rolling at an all-time high. Article after article piled upon retrospective after retrospective, selling the readers on the quality and impact of that era. New readers could get hooked on the Phoenix Saga at any point and the Phoenix Special Edition kept the focus of the fans and fan press on the Byrne/Claremont era. While JB was no longer on the book, he was still being very much associated with it and those issues were receiving praise and attention at a substantial rate.
The later success the X-Men enjoyed under Cockrum and Paul Smith were tied in large part to the wealth of attention that had been and was still being directed at the Phoenix Saga and Days of Future Past. That Claremont himself continued to revisit these, time and time again, was telling as well. The growth of X-Men Fandom was reciprocal with the attention paid the JB run, which was never far from the fan's roving eye or dollar.
Readers clearly liked Claremont's approach, but they could not and were not encouraged to forget those seminal issues done with JB throughout. Those later runs did not succeed solely upon their own merit, unkind though that may be to say, and their success was due in large part to the entire phenomenon, of which the JB run was a crucial and very present part.
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Jeff Scott Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 November 2016 Location: United States Posts: 238
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Posted: 11 December 2016 at 12:57pm | IP Logged | 4
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I agree that Paul Smith's art was crucial to sustaining a constant art feel to the book, liken to JB's...that said, the later revival of Dave Cockrum was reminiscent of truly bad art...what exactly was going on here, none of his prior relevancy to the series was present! Cockrum's art was pure camp/sloppy art compared to what he produced prior to Byrne's iconic run.
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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6103
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Posted: 11 December 2016 at 1:02pm | IP Logged | 5
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Brian: Readers clearly liked Claremont's approach, but they could not and were not encouraged to forget those seminal issues done with JB throughout. Those later runs did not succeed solely upon their own merit, unkind though that may be to say, and their success was due in large part to the entire phenomenon, of which the JB run was a crucial and very present part.
**
However much I agree with this point, it was a Claremont innovation to dwell so relentlessly on the impact of recent stories. It helped enshrine those storylines with a kind of epic reverence. This made the X-Men book feel somehow like it was the carrier of greatness. I sure bought into this feeling as a young reader. I expected each storyline in turn to receive the same kind of exaltations. It took me a while to catch on that it wasn't reaching the same heights (in my opinion). I realized I liked the stories that "built" on or referenced the Phoenix and Hellfire Club stuff more than I liked any new storylines.
It was a powerful device when Chris Claremont circled back again and again to the importance of recent events. And it really couldn't have happened if JB were still on the book.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132282
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Posted: 11 December 2016 at 1:08pm | IP Logged | 6
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... the later revival of Dave Cockrum was reminiscent of truly bad art...what exactly was going on here, none of his prior relevancy to the series was present! Cockrum's art was pure camp/sloppy art compared to what he produced prior to Byrne's iconic run. ••• No way I can agree with any of this.
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Phil Frances Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 August 2009 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 339
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Posted: 11 December 2016 at 1:09pm | IP Logged | 7
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Absolutely and totally Fantastic Four for me ; I did enjoy the X-Men run, but it was FF that really turned me onto comics in the '80s - these were stories at their pinnacle - well scripted, properly paced, superbly drawn, and just terrific fun ....
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Jeff Scott Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 November 2016 Location: United States Posts: 238
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Posted: 11 December 2016 at 1:14pm | IP Logged | 8
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JB: No way I can agree with any of this.
Ok, but as a fan at the time reading the book, the art was inferior, especially when it followed your work.
I say this as Dave Cockrum fan, his Legion art was amazing!
Edited by Jeff Scott on 11 December 2016 at 1:15pm
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Eric Smearman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 September 2006 Location: United States Posts: 5798
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Posted: 11 December 2016 at 1:28pm | IP Logged | 9
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FF.
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David Bensette Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 October 2014 Location: Canada Posts: 351
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Posted: 11 December 2016 at 1:37pm | IP Logged | 10
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1. Fantastic Four 2. Alpha Flight 3. X-Men
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Brennan Voboril Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 January 2011 Posts: 1734
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Posted: 11 December 2016 at 1:38pm | IP Logged | 11
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FF all the way, hands down, no two ways about it. I never cared for Claremont's writing and felt JB's art really hit a stride when he took over the Fantastic Four. I much preferred Hidden Years to the original JB run on X-Men.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132282
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Posted: 11 December 2016 at 2:03pm | IP Logged | 12
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Me too!Only thing I might have done differently, would have been to get Terry to ink it. Not really the look I was after for the series, and I was happy with what Tom gave me, but the combo might have had more fan appeal -- even tho we know it would not have looked like UNCANNY.
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