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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 10 February 2019 at 6:39pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Is THAT what Socialism is? Wow... Trump/s right in that we don't and shouldn't want that.

Still, it's hard to avoid the perception that SOMEBODY in the current administration is driving the bus in that direction!

You may not see it, Thomas Woods. If not, just say so; I believe many people in this topic will provide you examples. And surely, others who side with you will provide counter examples. Open debate, y'know... unless you feel that every Trump supporter is being censored or blocked in this discussion. You know... such as yourself.

But I know you believe it, and I'll stand up to defend your right to say (and post) it, even though I disagree with it.
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Thomas Woods
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Posted: 10 February 2019 at 9:30pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Well there are various forms but that is what they Strive for isn’t it

- More and more income equality, it’s not about the individual
- they own all the land, no individual does
- they own all the businesses, no individual does
- therefore they own all the news outlets


And if you are talking about Trump becoming a dictator, he wouldn’t live
very long if he tried.
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 11 February 2019 at 12:56am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Thomas Wood posted:
James WI’m not an expert , so correct me if I am wrong. 
But I think when Trump says we will never be socialist 
he is talking about 

- there is a dictator
- everyone is making the same amount of money
- everyone has the same house, car, etc
- everyone has the same healthcare 
- the media is completely controlled
- no freedom, very little options in life.
------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------

Not one aspect of that is Socialism.
That's not even Communism, or at least it's not any communism that is practised in this world (but then, I truly believe that Communism and fascism meet each other in that aspects of the above apply to both but both result in a mega elite that control the general populace through force and censorship)
What you posted was a Dictatorship, which could start out as either left wing or right wing. The end result is pretty much the same in both cases.

Socialism recognises that there will be differences between different people - you don't expect a fighter pilot to be paid the same as a bin man for example.
What it does have as an underpinning ethos, is that those that have, will assist those that do not, through various means - that might be social welfare, social health care. You may, or may not, have the option of private health care and education (as examples) - personally, I think these options should be kept for example.

As with everything, Socialism can exist to different degrees. Many on the right would say any Socialism is wrong and yet, when things go horribly wrong, would want the collective to assist in setting the ship right, such as with the banks. But I'm pretty sure there are many that would argue that that was a market necessity rather than a Socialist solution. I wouldn't agree.
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Neil Lindholm
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Posted: 11 February 2019 at 1:50am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

"There is no difference between communism and socialism, except in the means of achieving the same ultimate end: communism proposes to enslave men by force, socialism - by vote. It is merely the difference between murder and suicide."
-Ayn Rand

"The goal of socialism is communism."
-Lenin

A social democracy is not socialism. As long as there is choice, it is ok. If you force someone by threat of violence to participate, then it is not. 
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Neil Lindholm
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Posted: 11 February 2019 at 1:54am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

- there is a dictator
- everyone is making the same amount of money
- everyone has the same house, car, etc
- everyone has the same healthcare 
- the media is completely controlled
- no freedom, very little options in life. 

When I was living in China, we went on a field trip to a model Communist village, created by the government to showcase the perfection of socialism. Everyone had the same house, they had equal health care, they each had a bicycle outside their house and everyone had a chicken and a pig. The people living there were not allowed to move so they just sat around and smoked and posed for pictures with the tourists in hopes of a few coins. Good luck going to the media to comment about this. 

China - "Socialism with Chinese Characteristics"
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Thomas Woods
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Posted: 11 February 2019 at 4:40am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Socialism killed Venezuela


Watched this, goes over some of what I mentioned
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Thomas Woods
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Posted: 11 February 2019 at 4:43am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

At James, yeah I think some forms of socialism can work within our
capitalist system.
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Eric Ladd
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Posted: 11 February 2019 at 8:02am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Some forms already work and have worked within the US system.Too many to list, but for some reason they are rarely recognized.
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Richard Stevens
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Posted: 11 February 2019 at 8:27am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

We already have socialism in America. It's just dedicated to making sure large corporations and billionaires don't have to pay taxes.

I'd love to see what actual functioning capitalism is like in my lifetime. It's probably better than this for most people!
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 11 February 2019 at 9:22am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

There was an aspect of this that I had considered that I believe has been touched upon in Star Trek and on the Silver Age Krypton (and possible elsewhere, surely.)

At the minimum in society, no one is homeless; no one is starving; no one is dying because of their living conditions. So the government would provide the following
  • Everyone has somewhere to live - mind you, it may be a one bedroom flat with bathroom, but they have a place to get out of the heat and the cold.
  • Everyone has food. They may have to go to a food kitchen to dine, and it may be very basic (e.g., meat loaf and potatoes and carrots) for each meal - but no one starves.
  • Everyone has clothing. Again, it could be the most basic level - cotton tunic and pants, plastic boots - but they are not unclad.
  • Everyone has access to basic travel - a bus, a subway, etc.
  • Everyone gets elementary entertainment. Access to libraries and "television" theaters, and radio in their living quarters.
  • All citizens have access to a good education system.

Now obviously, not many people would appreciate this level of subsistence (once they were used to not starving or freezing.) And the answer might be socialistic - but if you want more, you do more. Want a better living cubicle? Go work cleaning up parks and sidewalks. If you work in a factory, you get a voucher to go to a better dining hall once in a while. You can have a car if you work in a more important industry.

Obviously, this is a very generalized concept, but it occurs to me that a society where no one starves to death, or perishes from weather extremes, or has to commit crimes just to survive is probably a good idea.

"Who pays for this?" is the same answer as always; taxes and governmental support. I have often heard that reducing homelessness and crime would help balance society's bills... likely it could happen in this scenario.
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Richard Stevens
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Posted: 11 February 2019 at 9:34am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

I could get behind that.

If one is required to live in a society, at the very least it should be actively attempting to keep all its members alive.
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Ed Aycock
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Posted: 11 February 2019 at 9:56am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

You want a great, functioning, socialist institution in the US?  Go to your public library.  And they're always the first to get their funding pulled.  Yet in my area, they are busier than ever. 
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Marc Baptiste
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Posted: 11 February 2019 at 10:03am | IP Logged | 13 post reply

Anyone who has studied political science AND economics knows full well that the last thing any sane individual wants is a society with a PURE economic system (e.g., pure capitalism, pure socialism, pure communism, etc.) - what we have now in the United States is one of the best systems, imperfect as it is, that has been tried: a BLENDED system of capitalism AND socialism.  Granted it is HEAVILY biased in favor of the capitalist side of the ledger, and could use a little more balance.

Trump was right, though for ALL the WRONG reasons.

Marc




Edited by Marc Baptiste on 11 February 2019 at 10:05am
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 11 February 2019 at 10:25am | IP Logged | 14 post reply

I agree Marc. A blended society with aspects of both, that keeps things closer to the middle ground is the better ideal. 

The problems come when you go too far in either direction away from that middle ground and you start to get massive layers of corruption.
People become corrupt because they want to have, and keep, more money, either through dodgy deals or through control of what people can do - both result in people suffering.
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Thomas Woods
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Posted: 11 February 2019 at 10:26am | IP Logged | 15 post reply

From where I come from a lot of those things should be provided by the
community, churches, volunteers. I have seen things that seem to
indicate this is going on but I don’t know if it is consistent and always a
guarantee. And most likely there are pleanty of areas not covering
enough.

I think the government can do some of these things but there is always
the fear that they will permanently rely on the governments welfare and
more and more people will just choose this over working.

I think any social programs we have are mostly ok as long as it doesn’t
reach the point were the government is taking our land and businesses.
And we have the freedom to try to succeed more and live where we
want.
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 14 February 2019 at 8:58pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

Trump was just caught out getting doctors to lie about his health, and even lying about his height! One of the advantages he had during the election was made-up headlines seen at every newsstand and supermarket check-out line like "Hillary Clinton Brain-Cancer Drama!", "Hillary Caught In Sex Scandal Cover-Up!", and "Hillary: Six Months To Live!", from that great 'news'paper the National Enquirer (not to mention whatever people targeted at them through facebook). How does that rag still find people of dubious sanity to keep in in business all these decades? How is it allowed to print altered photos and totally fake stuff about a candidate for the top office during an election anyway? It could've had just enough effect to help him squeeze in with that great mandate of minus three million votes over Hillary. Now we find out he has some serious weight, heart and cholesterol problems!

Plus Donald Trump is not 6'3", but he really really wants to be I guess, like Jeb Bush actually is (so unfair). Oh and speaking of bogus health info, he has tweeted that vaccinations cause autism in children! Your President... the one who had Russian oligarchs and banned-from-entry officials as his guests, even at his inauguration. What us worry? But look, over there, it's  a woman who thought she had more native blood than she really does, gasp! :^(


Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 14 February 2019 at 9:01pm
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 14 February 2019 at 9:10pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

Where in Marx did he envision a dictatorship?
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Thomas Woods
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Posted: 14 February 2019 at 10:10pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

Are you sure all that is true Rebecca? You know
Clinton's doctors were I think proven to be lying when
the news channels were backing her up 100 percent
perfect health. Then she was stumbling and had
something hooked to her back and I think they changed
the story to she had the flu or something.

You also know it is common to lie in the political
world so why is Trump so much worse? They all lie.

So now the MSM is trying to downplay the Russian
investigation because it is coming to a close and they
have no evidence at all. All the over the top ratings
on how Trump was a master spy, they got their money
and has a lot of people fooled, and angry. But they
were wrong all along. So why should you trust anything
else they say about Trump? No matter how good he does,
they will spin it to something bad.
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Richard Stevens
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Posted: 14 February 2019 at 11:49pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

this guy is just fucking with us and doing a character, right?
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Thomas Woods
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Posted: 15 February 2019 at 12:16am | IP Logged | 20 post reply

I think he is playing the left wing media more than anything else. He
loves it when they go after him because the more they do the more
popular he gets and they are more likely to be found out as full of shit
(buzzfeed).

News reporter finding out he lied about his height, calls a panel of
experts to bitch about Trump for and hour, spreads to all other channels
.... people at home are like “yeah you guys really hate Trump, how can
we count on you being fair.”
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Koroush Ghazi
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Posted: 15 February 2019 at 12:56am | IP Logged | 21 post reply

 Thomas Woods wrote:
You also know it is common to lie in the political world so why is Trump so much worse? They all lie.


Thomas, I know you're probably used to mixing with Trump supporters, but bear in mind that this is JBF, and unlike, say, Breitbart, most of us made it through Grade 5 without being held back until we were 18.

Here's what the difference is between Trump and other politicians:

Trump outright lies 70% of the time.

Compare that to, say, the most evil person on Earth, Hillary Clinton, who lies 26% of the time.

In socialist countries like Australia, where there is universal education, and public schools are Godless, unholy breeding grounds for critical thought, we call that a significant degree of difference.

Also, wasn't this the guy you voted for to clean up the swamp? When did the criteria go from cleaning up the swamp, to "oh he's no worse than the rest of them?". Was it about the same time that you blacked out, and woke up hours later to find stitches on your forehead, and the doctors gave you a nice red hat to cover up the scar?
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 15 February 2019 at 1:41am | IP Logged | 22 post reply

 Thomas Woods wrote:
So now the MSM is trying to downplay the Russian investigation because it is coming to a close and they 
have no evidence at all.

Source? Since we haven't actually seen the report or read the specifics, I'd be really curious to know how you can unequivocally state that "they have no evidence at all".  
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 15 February 2019 at 1:43am | IP Logged | 23 post reply

And I also painfully remember the last time I asked for sources (just a few days ago) and you supplied about the most politically motivated blogs and hack non-news sources available as "proof" under the guise of "I can't do adequate research right now, so here's what's in my browser history".  So, yeah, color me skeptical. 
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 15 February 2019 at 1:52am | IP Logged | 24 post reply

 Thomas Woods wrote:
They all lie.

This is the worst kind of bullshit.  

Yes, Thomas, everyone lies.  

That doesn't mean that all lies are the same or that they are all of equal weight.  

You continue to use this line of reasoning to explain/defuse/deter or otherwise wish away to the cornfield any hint of abuse by your preferred orange-headed leader. "Everyone lies" so "it's all good".  As if the playing field is even and everyone, including Trump, is just doing what they all do.

Wasn't he elected to not do what every swamp person has ever done? That was, correct me if I'm wrong, one of his main pillars.    

That's bullshit and you know it.  If you don't?  Well, shame on you.  
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 15 February 2019 at 2:00am | IP Logged | 25 post reply

You also know it is common to lie in the political world so why is Trump so much worse? They all lie.

------

One of my (many) issues with Trump's lies are they are SO. FUCKING. DUMB.

He's like the one loser kid you knew in elementary school who insisted that his dad was close personal friends with Arnold Schwarzeneggar and let him watch TERMINATOR 2 six months early and that he had a birthday last weekend and Van Halen showed up randomly and played a set. He's fucking Chunk from GOONIES. Everything is the best or the smartest or the most something ever. The lies are especially dumb in the internet age, when it takes less than a minute to fact check something.
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