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James Woodcock Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 7605
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Posted: 15 September 2020 at 11:38am | IP Logged | 1
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That’s the best Mis-type/auto correct ever
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John Wickett Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 July 2016 Location: United States Posts: 804
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Posted: 15 September 2020 at 12:21pm | IP Logged | 2
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James, you're right, and I should have clarified. Deniers are out there, and some even occupy prominent political offices, but I think they constitute an extremely small minority of people; even on the political right.
I think some on the left are too quick to slap the denier label on anyone who disagrees with their policy agendas, which is a discussion/debate killer (I'm not accusing you of this by the way).
What are your thoughts on where we go from here? As I mentioned, I think big changes were necessary for us to mitigate the effects of climate change, and we may have already missed the boat. Right now it seems like all of the debate is still on how to best prevent or slow down global warming, rather than dealing with the consequences of what appears to be inevitable.
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12429
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Posted: 15 September 2020 at 12:56pm | IP Logged | 3
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SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN has endorsed Biden.
QUOTE:
We’ve never backed a presidential candidate in our 175-year history—until now |
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James Woodcock Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 7605
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Posted: 15 September 2020 at 1:14pm | IP Logged | 4
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John - I don’t think we can mitigate the effects - the scale is too large to be able to mitigate - we are going to have to get used to a number of things, many of which we are already beginning to see the initial stages of. Examples are: Extreme temperatures Extreme rainfall in places we won’t expect it - a scale of rainfall that we cannot mitigate with flood alleviation Poor growing of crops Decreased land mass to live on Breakdown of weather patterns such as jet streams Increased storms
That’s why we have been focussing on prevention - which we have utterly failed at. Energy conservation yields far better results that alternative energy, but we really need a good mix of both.
Politically, one of the issues we have now, is a President who doesn’t believe in climate change & thinks that he needs to back polluting industries to win votes. He’s backing this up with straight lies & has a fan base that actually believes his lies. That group, I think, is considerably larger than you think. That he is putting deniers in key positions is very, very dangerous. Trump is not interested in the debate. I recommend you look @ videos of him talking about wind farms being bird killing fields, causing cancer etc. He doesn’t have facts to back those claims, so there is no debate to be had with him - you cannot fight fog.
The only way forward is for Trump to lose. If he wins, that’s it. Four years from now will be too late
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Peter Martin Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 15778
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Posted: 15 September 2020 at 2:16pm | IP Logged | 5
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Mitigating isn't a binary option. It is never too late to try and mitigate something.
As to where to go from here: the first step would be for the US to re-commit to its previously made promises with regards to the Paris climate accords.
Another step is to recognise that improved efficiency and cleaner energy is a desirable goal, regardless of global warming... And that these are achievable goals.
Wind farms work. Hydro plants work. Clean electricity and they don't cause cancer. Government can lead the way to help build the necessary infrastructure that we need to move away from fossil fuels.
The number one way to guarantee we cannot achieve something is to say 'nope, can't do it!'
Edited by Peter Martin on 15 September 2020 at 2:16pm
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John Wickett Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 July 2016 Location: United States Posts: 804
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Posted: 15 September 2020 at 2:43pm | IP Logged | 6
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I hate to be pessimistic, but I agree with James that we've failed at prevention and some of these things are going to happen now. That doesn't mean we should stop trying, but given how badly we've failed until now, its hard to imagine that government and industry will implement the type of sweeping changes that have been called for before its too late.
At this point we have to figure out how to deal with what's coming. Its time to pay the piper for the dance. Fortunately, there is a lot that can be done if we can find the collective willpower.
As far as clean energy is concerned, I'm actually working on a hydro project right now that could be consequential. The inventor has created a way to construct micro-power plants that run off of a sealed system. The technology has been certified by a third party engineering firm, and is going through patenting. We have a tentative PPA in place with a firm in CA. Can't say more due to non disclosure agreements, but keep your fingers crossed, it could be a game changer.
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James Woodcock Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 7605
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Posted: 15 September 2020 at 2:46pm | IP Logged | 7
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I agree Peter, but there are a lot of effects that we will just have to live with, many of those in my list above.
We can try to mitigate, but the severity is going to prove difficult.
I live in a non-flood area. We now have floods each year. 100 year return period storms are becoming 1 year return period storms. That is an incredible thing to try to mitigate.
Sewers are not cheap to change. Often, it’s not the ability to mitigate, it will be the cost of mitigation. Other times, it will be an inability to mitigate. A lot of people are going to lose land.
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Brian Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 30886
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Posted: 15 September 2020 at 6:06pm | IP Logged | 8
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Wind farms work.
********
The noise from them also causes cancer.
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Neil Lindholm Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2005 Location: China Posts: 4940
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Posted: 15 September 2020 at 6:13pm | IP Logged | 9
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QUOTE:
Wind farms work. Hydro plants work. Clean electricity and they don't cause cancer. Government can lead the way to help build the necessary infrastructure that we need to move away from fossil fuels. |
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Nuclear is the one resource that can provide future needs of energy but when I see so-called environmental activists decrying nuclear and working to actively block it, I know that they don't really have the best interests of the environment in mind, but are just using environmental issues as a tool to further their political aims.
(Not saying Peter had this in mind when he posted it. Just using his quote to make a point.)
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14812
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Posted: 15 September 2020 at 6:32pm | IP Logged | 10
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when I see so-called environmental activists decrying nuclear and working to actively block it, I know that they don't really have the best interests of the environment in mind, but are just using environmental issues as a tool to further their political aims.
------
Or perhaps they have a genuine difference of opinion on what's best for the environment? They may be making the wrong calculus, but to assert disingenuity is fuckery along the lines of people asserting that masks are not about fighting the pandemic but about government control.
The real problem with nuclear energy is that plants are expensive and take a long time to build, and then something like Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, or Fukushima happens and governments stop investing in nuclear for a while.
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Rebecca Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018 Location: Canada Posts: 4496
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Posted: 15 September 2020 at 10:47pm | IP Logged | 11
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Or maybe they don't live anywhere near Hanford, WA?
And now, just when you thought the "very stable genius" couldn't say anything dumber he hits a new bottom!
“You’ll develop like a herd mentality,” Trump said. “It’s going to be, going to be herd-developed and that’s going to happen.”
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/09/trump-covid-pandemic -will-go-away-due-to-herd-mentality.html
Mooooooooo!
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Neil Lindholm Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2005 Location: China Posts: 4940
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Posted: 15 September 2020 at 11:15pm | IP Logged | 12
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CLEAN ENERGY IS ON THE DECLINE — HERE'S WHY, AND WHAT WE CAN DO ABOUT IT
This is nothing new. Many environmentalists have stated that they don't want cheap, plentiful energy since that will simply bring about more people. Back in the 1960's nuclear was touted as the best way to solve pollution issues since it is clean, cheap and plentiful. Activists who were opposed to providing cheap energy begin a disinformation campaign which has been quite successful. Nuclear plants are expensive because they have been forced to kowtow to ridiculous safety standards no other energy production method would ever have to shoulder, which also adds to their build time. Three Mile Island? Nothing happened. Chernobyl? 1960s crappy Communist technology. Fukushima? Crappy old 1970s technology. You can't compare them to a modern facility. Yet Germany, in their push for clean energy, banned all nuclear plants and fired up the coal plants instead. The activists won that round.
Luckily, many environmentalists, the ones that really do want clean, safe and cheap energy for everyone, have been pushing for nuclear energy.
Again, nothing new. This has been going on for decades.
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