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Rick Senger
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Posted: 26 October 2016 at 1:59am | IP Logged | 1  

I can only believe that the group, specifically Glenn, "got what they deserved" if I believed in karma.  Which I don't.  Nothing Glenn did could have been traced back to him.  His actions didn't get him murdered....Viciously and brutally murdered, yes, but not because of something that Glenn did previously that neither Negan nor his group could have possibly known.
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Karma doesn't require Negan's awareness of Glenn's actions in order for Glenn's fate to be sealed.  It is a purely spiritual Buddhist cause and effect concept. The argument of a believer in Karma would probably be that Glenn's death was preordained once Glenn "embraced the dark side" (went against his character by knowingly killing the defenseless sleeping man)  and that Negan wasn't knowingly meting out Karmic justice, he was simply the instrument Karma chose to use.  I'm not saying I buy Karma got Glenn killed (many are still alive who have done far worse for starters), but by definition nobody including Negan needed any knowledge of Glenn's actions for those actions to come back to bite Glenn as long as Glenn knew what he'd done.

As to being "morally suspect", everyone on the series is morally suspect. No one is an innocent.  The series has gone to great pains showing just that.
*****
Dale's hands were pretty clean.  It's probably why he didn't last beyond 16 episodes.
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 26 October 2016 at 2:23am | IP Logged | 2  

I understand the concept of karma.  I don't believe in it.  That's why I don't subscribe to the theory that Glenn, or the group for that matter, got what they deserved for karmic payback.  But take my beliefs out of it.  Negan chose Abraham at random based on a child's game and murdered Glenn only because Daryl stood up to him.  That's is.  Abraham was the price paid for killing members of Negan's group and Glenn was the price paid for continuing to defy him.  Personally, I don't think Rick's group "deserved" what they got.  Negan is just the guy in power and is exacting the payment he thinks he deserves.  

As far as Dale, "pretty clean" is still a qualifier.  He turned a blind eye until he no longer could.  He knew what the group was doing and didn't do anything to stand up to it or, if his morality was so compromised, leave the group entirely.  He made choices and to stay with the group was one of them even though he knew what they were doing went against what he believed.  He was culpable.
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Andrew Bitner
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Posted: 26 October 2016 at 8:05am | IP Logged | 3  

I see what you're saying, Matt, and I agree with you for the most part. And I see what Rick is saying as well.

Negan wants people to be afraid of him and thus do whatever he tells them to do. He doesn't gain anything if Rick and his community--a group he hadn't previously attacked, as far as we know--are all dead. He needed to break Rick as fast and brutally as he could, and he did. Killing two men was part of Negan's strategy for making Alexandria afraid of him and willing to surrender.

Rick won't stay broken. The fight with Negan has only begun. If it's anything like the comic, it will be very interesting.
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Eric Ladd
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Posted: 26 October 2016 at 8:07am | IP Logged | 4  

If the world of TWD is built on Karma then what does Negan have coming for essentially enslaving the local population? I don't like the idea of Karma being at work because in the world constructed by TWD nobody is free from some kind of Karmic debt.

I completely understand the need to show Negan break Rick mentally in order to subjugate him and the people that follow him. However, it is getting more and more difficult to believe that the most powerful people in this world are the ones that are corrupt and good people always die. While Negan will be milked for 2-3 seasons, I believe the show would be better off having Rick and company untangled from him by the end of this season. I don't think the show could survive several seasons of watching Rick and company hopeless and picked off one by one as they attempt and fail to be freed of Negan.

One of the best stories lines for me was how they dealt with the zombies in the quarry. The group overcoming the environment was quite interesting, daring and engaging. Seeing the next iteration of TWD super villain psycho could drive a lot of people away if the feeling of dread and hopelessness established by the season opener isn't lifted rather quickly. I hear rumors that the show is already starting to pull back some based on initial public reaction to the opener.

Remember the back and forth battle between Kirk and Khan in "Wrath of Khan"? That is how Rick and Negan should have gone at it. Back and forth, each pulling a proverbial ace out of their sleeve just when they needed it. Both seeming to outsmart each other over and over until it finally ends, but not without loss. I feel like the season opener of TWD skipped right to the death of Spock, went ahead and offed Scotty too and turned Kirk into a cabin boy from the get go.

Perhaps I'm being a little hard on the show and they have some masterful writing ahead of them to illustrate how Rick isn't broken, but has retained his humanity and a willingness to confront Negan eventually and win. But it certainly doesn't feel that way. I think this season will break a lot of long time viewers.


Edited by Eric Ladd on 26 October 2016 at 8:09am
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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 26 October 2016 at 8:13am | IP Logged | 5  

As far as Dale, "pretty clean" is still a qualifier.  He turned a blind eye until he no longer could.  He knew what the group was doing and didn't do anything to stand up to it or, if his morality was so compromised, leave the group entirely.  He made choices and to stay with the group was one of them even though he knew what they were doing went against what he believed.  He was culpable.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Based upon what we saw Dale was pretty clean.  I agree that he was culpable. But I don't think he turned a blind eye. It appeared to me that he was speaking up from the beginning. He did intensify his protests once they got to the farm.  Which I agree with you Matt he couldn't take anymore of it.  I don't think leaving the group was an option for him. Besides it being suicide for him to go on his on. He cared too much for some of the members.
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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 26 October 2016 at 8:15am | IP Logged | 6  

  Negan chose Abraham at random based on a child's game.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I wonder if it was really at random. Abraham showed his defiance towards Negan. It could have been a tactical choice.

Setting aside  of course the fact that Abraham was killed in the comics around this time.


Edited by Anthony J Lombardi on 26 October 2016 at 8:16am
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Brian Floyd
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Posted: 26 October 2016 at 9:00am | IP Logged | 7  

I haven't watched the show in a while, but was tempted to come back due to Jeffery Dean Morgan being cast as Negan. But Glenn being killed off put that idea to rest, since he was my favorite character.

And isn't Negan still alive in the comics? His eventual comeuppance needs to be as bad as the Governor's was in the comics, if not worse.


Edited by Brian Floyd on 26 October 2016 at 9:02am
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Rick Senger
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Posted: 26 October 2016 at 10:27am | IP Logged | 8  

I understand the concept of karma.  I don't believe in it.  That's why I don't subscribe to the theory that Glenn, or the group for that matter, got what they deserved for karmic payback.  But take my beliefs out of it.  Negan chose Abraham at random based on a child's game and murdered Glenn only because Daryl stood up to him.  That's is.  Abraham was the price paid for killing members of Negan's group and Glenn was the price paid for continuing to defy him. 
*****
Karma followers' basic philosophy is that nothing is random no matter how much we think it is.  So you're not "taking your beliefs out of it" when you frame your entire premise by asserting Negan chose Abraham and Glenn at random based on a child's game, with complete unawareness of Glenn's actions, etc, you're merely restating your own belief.   I don't think Glenn's actions did him in but I can understand the perception and find it interesting fodder for late night discussion.

(Dale) knew what the group was doing and didn't do anything to stand up to it
*****
The Dale I remember made repeated impassioned, articulate pleas to both individuals and the entire group to consider more humane alternatives.  Given the "all bets are off" apocalyptic situation, I found his humanity striking.
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Rick Senger
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Posted: 26 October 2016 at 11:08am | IP Logged | 9  

One of the best stories lines for me was how they dealt with the zombies in the quarry. The group overcoming the environment was quite interesting, daring and engaging. Seeing the next iteration of TWD super villain psycho could drive a lot of people away if the feeling of dread and hopelessness established by the season opener isn't lifted rather quickly.
*****
Loved the quarry story too.  It was visually arresting, probably the most serious threat yet, and resulted in the most audaciously simple yet ballsy solution.  I also liked that it resolved pretty quickly.  TWD has some weaknesses but a particular achilles heel can be pacing.  The Farm sequence from season two stretched interminably until the inevitable zombie reveal (and heartbreak) in the Barn. The writers / producers have the zombie mayhem thing down cold but they struggle to occupy time between red letter events with lengthy stanzas of blatant filler.  That quarry story unfolded quickly, moved the plotline forward and resolved even faster. The best kind of TWD tale.

it is getting more and more difficult to believe that the most powerful people in this world are the ones that are corrupt and good people always die.
*****
We've discussed in previous threads how the meek and innocent generally don't seem equipped to survive in this world.  Alexandria's mostly naive residents were the rare anomaly pretty neatly explained by that same episode above, which showed how the nearby quarry artificially protected this already gated town.  Otherwise, it seems the show stays pretty true to the "might makes right" premise, and Rick and co. have slowly come around to that way of thinking.  As the show progresses, I have a feeling there will be fewer and fewer Dales out there and a lot more Negans and Governors.  Not saying that's good.  It just seems to be the way of things.

While Negan will be milked for 2-3 seasons, I believe the show would be better off having Rick and company untangled from him by the end of this season.
*****
Maybe so.  The Governor, while initially an intriguing and charismatic character, became increasingly caricatured and a bit too gonzo / superhuman the longer he stuck around.  Time will tell how well Negan wears on the audience but so far the ratings continue to dazzle.


Edited by Rick Senger on 26 October 2016 at 11:22am
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 26 October 2016 at 11:28am | IP Logged | 10  

While Negan will be milked for 2-3 seasons, I believe the show would be better off having Rick and company untangled from him by the end of this season. 

***

Agreed.

I understand the temptation for any franchise to milk something. When you have such a compelling character, it is tempting. We've seen film franchises and TV shows reluctant to kill off a popular character (wasn't Jaws supposed to die in his first JAMES BOND appearance?). Hell, who wants to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs?

Balance is the key, though. Imagine if SPECTRE had been active well into the Roger Moore era. Yes, I know that them not being part of the Moore era may have been more to do with legal rights and that, but in a way that was a good thing. Anything can outstay its welcome. Any character can. And when such a character, like Negan, is utterly compelling, I can and do understand producers/writers saying, "We really need to keep this going."

But, again, it's about balance. No-one wants to see a character outstay their welcome. And we do need hope. I don't follow the comics (never read one!) so have no idea what happened post-Negan, but there's a part of me that thinks this arc needs to be wrapped up by the end of the season. Of course, the one thing I do wonder about is, if they do that, how will they ever top the Governor and Negan? Those two would be a hard act to follow.

Interesting times ahead, I guess.
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Andrew Bitner
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Posted: 26 October 2016 at 1:44pm | IP Logged | 11  

SPOILER (maybe)
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Yes, Negan is alive in the comics--and he's proving to be an interesting almost-ally of our heroes, in that he's frustrating the goals of a much worse and insidious threat. "The enemy of my enemy" time.
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 26 October 2016 at 2:48pm | IP Logged | 12  

Hmm, interesting. It's far, far too late for me to catch up on the comic - and I'd only be experiencing repetitive feelings if I did (as I'd wager a LOT in the comic reflects what I've seen on the screen).

On a separate note, I do think this is a good series for folk who don't like zombie films/TV shows. Thing is, the zombies are almost incidental to the human nature/psychology aspects.


Edited by Robbie Parry on 26 October 2016 at 2:48pm
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Eric Ladd
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Posted: 27 October 2016 at 7:21am | IP Logged | 13  

Agreed, Robbie. The zombies are as much a part of the background or environment as the types of trees encountered in a particular forest. I saw someone suggest that Fear the Walking Dead may have diminished the brand a bit. While I gave that series a try, it did not keep me. One show where a central group of characters dealt with evil humans during a zombie apocalypse was enough.
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 27 October 2016 at 8:03am | IP Logged | 14  

Fear the Walking Dead may have diminished the brand a bit.

***

Have the DVD here. Intrigued so will probably watch it this week.

I am surprised when I hear of rumours pertaining to a TWD movie. What could a two-hour possibly do that a long-running series couldn't? Talk about redundancy.
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Eric Ladd
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Posted: 27 October 2016 at 8:50am | IP Logged | 15  

With the show's format and the latitude offered in a weekly, episodic narrative, a two hour movie does pose a number of limitations. Off the top of my head the only thing I can imagine being viable as a 90-120 minute movie is showing the outbreak. Most fans would enjoy seeing what happened to the world while Rick was in a coma.
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 27 October 2016 at 9:11am | IP Logged | 16  

Remember Glenn's line in the season opener:

"Maggie, I'll find you."

Some on the internet are reading too much into that, in my view. Some seem to think Glenn will return as a zombie. And others are wondering if he really is dead. IMDb, of course (you know how it can be over there).

I see it as simply being a poignant comment made by someone who knew his time was up.
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Andrew Bitner
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Posted: 27 October 2016 at 9:28am | IP Logged | 17  

He won't return, nor will Abraham. They're both gone, in the flesh, but their spirits--and their deaths--will continue to have an effect on the show for a long time to come.

Steven Yeun said he thinks the last line is Glenn saying to Maggie that he'll watch over her. It was damned poignant.
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Brian Rhodes
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Posted: 27 October 2016 at 6:17pm | IP Logged | 18  

Some seem to think Glenn will return as a zombie. And others are wondering if he really is dead.

Did they not see this, or any, episode of The Walking Dead??

Take out the brain, and they don't come back. And his brain was quite effectively taken out of the equation.
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 27 October 2016 at 9:21pm | IP Logged | 19  

Glenn will come back through the Force. Because Midichlorians have been behind the zombie outbreak all along. 
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 28 October 2016 at 4:27am | IP Logged | 20  

Did they not see this, or any, episode of The Walking Dead??

***

This is what puzzled me. They should know.

I suppose there's someone out there who will say he was wearing a fake head on top of his real head. And that Negan bashed the 'fake head' leaving Glen's real head untouched. That's where the bizarre logic is heading.

Okay, no spoilers, but I did look up the history of the TWD comic strip (I had to, it's far too late for me to catch up with 100+ issues). Interesting stuff. I hope that the series goes there.
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 30 October 2016 at 10:48pm | IP Logged | 21  

So, yeah, this episode is right where the comic jumped the shark for me, and I was looking to it with some dread that it would have a similar effect on the show...

...and it did.  Are there civilians out there who are still able to buy into this? Other than the zombie premise, they've tried to maintain at least a vague sense of realism...then this.
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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 30 October 2016 at 11:01pm | IP Logged | 22  

So, yeah, this episode is right where the comic jumped the shark for me, and I was looking to it with some dread that it would have a similar effect on the show...

...and it did.  Are there civilians out there who are still able to buy into this? Other than the zombie premise, they've tried to maintain at least a vague sense of realism...then this.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Steve, if you can't enjoy the show anymore. Because you just can't buy into it anymore. That just sucks for you. It's a real shame that the enjoyment might be gone for you. What will you do now? Will you continue to watch hoping it will get better? Or is it time for you to move on?

As for me the show is now where the shark cage yet. I still get great enjoyment out of it. I'll get annoyed at the obvious stupidity when it happens. But for the most part I know that this isn't our reality. It's doesn't need to operate the same way ours does.. It is for the most part Robert Kirkman's reality. Things work the way that they do because he says it does. As long as things are plausible enough. I can buy into what he's selling.

 I've enjoyed the ride enough so far. So unless it has a string of terrible seasons. I'm riding this out.


Edited by Anthony J Lombardi on 30 October 2016 at 11:04pm
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 31 October 2016 at 1:43am | IP Logged | 23  

I thought this was one of the best episodes in a long time. Ezekiel and
Shiva sounded strange when I heard about him from comic readers,
but the logic around the characters totally worked for me.
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 31 October 2016 at 1:19pm | IP Logged | 24  

Will you continue to watch hoping it will get better? Or is it time for you to move on?
---------------------------------------------------
I'll probably continue to follow it the way I follow the comic, which is check in now and then just to see what's going on.  Like I said, this was going to be kind of a hard sell for me from the get go since its where the comic lost me.  But since the show has in the past toned down some of the excesses of the comic (for example, the Governor, who was basically a left over Preacher villain in the comic), so I was vaguely hopeful that something similar might happen here.  Instead of toning down, they sort of doubled down and I found the show's version even more out of whack with the series than I had the comic.

I don't know if its beyond redemption, hence why I'll check in now and gain, but yeah, the bloom is off the rose for me.  I may be a bit of a tough audience, too, as Fear the Walking Dead never grabbed me at all, and Preacher, despite my efforts to like it, lost me after three episodes.
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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 31 October 2016 at 3:07pm | IP Logged | 25  


I don't know if its beyond redemption, hence why I'll check in now and gain, but yeah, the bloom is off the rose for me.  I may be a bit of a tough audience, too, as Fear the Walking Dead never grabbed me at all, and Preacher, despite my efforts to like it, lost me after three episodes.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I hope that it does improve for you. When I find a program I enjoy I want to share it with everyone and hope they'll enjoy it as much as I do.

Fear the Walking Dead up to this point is a failure for me. Because I don't care what happens to most of the characters. The only reason I continue to watch is because it acts as a filler for me. Preacher wasn't working for me for most of the season. I enjoyed the season finale which gave me hope for season 2.
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