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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 04 August 2016 at 4:09pm | IP Logged | 1  

First off, let me say I like Jim Shooter's writing.  His last go-round on LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES a few years ago was very well-written but somewhat buried over by flashy modern art.  I've liked various stories of his through the years and I can't help but note that Marvel reached new heights under his watch.

However, as I've learned here and elsewhere (as JB would put it) he fixed Marvel...but then he KEPT "fixing" things that were no longer broken.

So, there are three things that Shooter tried to do during his "Stop fixing things!" stage that stand out in my mind:

1. He started the New Universe, giving Marvel "two universes" to deal with..
2. He decided some stories were over and canceled books like GHOST RIDER.
3. He wanted to replace all the secret identities of the heroes.

Looking at the last few years of Marvel, it seems that his questionable dreams have been fulfilled by others.

1. The Ultimate line tried really hard to supplant the main SPIDER-MAN, AVENGERS, FANTASTIC FOUR, and X-MEN books for over ten years there (and apparently is still going somewhat even after Marvel inexplicably did their own universe-merging "Crisis").  With so many people complaining through the years about how "confusing" Earth-2 was over at DC, nobody seemed to blink an eye when Marvel started its OWN Earth-2!  And the Ultimate variations have now been immortalized with the movies (which seem to be half-Ultimate and half-Classic Marvel).

2. Like cancelling GHOST RIDER (which I think has been proven through the years to have had more legs than a mere 81 issues), this is ALL Marvel seems to be doing now.  Books are started and cancelled all the time based on specific storylines.  Everything Marvel is doing now is SITUATIONAL.  Do you want to read an iconic HULK comic?  Sorry, what you get is RED HULK, then HULK AGENT OF SHIELD, now it's TEEN KOREAN HULK!  Are you looking for iconic THOR, IRON MAN, CAPTAIN AMERICA, AVENGERS, or X-MEN comics?  Sorry, all you can find are weird, temporary variations that will be cancelled and restarted within a year or two.  EVERYTHING is a mini-series now.  (Is this just to keep the readers off-balance.  Is that the strategy now?)

3. Shooter's replacement idea is coming to full fruition right now!  Bucky was and Sam Wilson is CAPTAIN AMERICA.  (Don't get me started on the Steve Rogers series.)  Jane Foster is THOR.  Doc Ock was and Miles Morales is SPIDER-MAN.  Dr. Doom and some teenage girl are both going to be IRON MAN.  Gen. Ross was and Amadeus Cho is THE HULK.  Carol Danvers is CAPTAIN MARVEL (the fourth iteration for both her and the name).  Some teen girl is MS. MARVEL (because all the teen girls love the title "Ms." these days?).  SPIDER-WOMAN was replaced, SHE-HULK was replaced, DR. STRANGE was replaced, POWER MAN was replaced, BLACK PANTHER was replaced, and I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot.  All the teams are unrecognizable mixes.  This was one of Shooter's worst ideas, but it has taken over the company.

Did Shooter plant these ideas and they just took 30 years to flower?
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John Byrne
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Posted: 04 August 2016 at 4:18pm | IP Logged | 2  

The first appearance of the Silver Age flash started it all.
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Stephen Churay
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Posted: 04 August 2016 at 5:01pm | IP Logged | 3  

. He started the New Universe, giving Marvel "two
universes" to deal with..
======
DP7, the most unfortunate name for a book ever.


I don't know what the thinking is at Marvel currently.
It used to be that readers would avoid the X-Men titles
because they were impenetrable. Now the whole Marvel line
feels that way.
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 04 August 2016 at 5:02pm | IP Logged | 4  

1. He started the New Universe, giving Marvel "two universes" to deal with..
 
1. The Ultimate line tried really hard to supplant the main SPIDER-MAN,...
 
*****************
 
These aren't quite the same thing. Yes, he started the New Universe, but nowhere in that universe were there different versions of heroes from the Marvel Universe. ( Unless you count JB's convention issue of STAR BRAND ;)   ). I don't think comparing the two work exactly how you're wanting it to.
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 04 August 2016 at 5:12pm | IP Logged | 5  

Sorry, all you can find are weird, temporary variations that will be cancelled and restarted within a year or two.  EVERYTHING is a mini-series now.  (Is this just to keep the readers off-balance.  Is that the strategy now?)

***

Indeed.

Makes it all very confusing. There was a comic store (miles from where I live so not accessible) which, thankfully, did mail order years ago. They'd sent out a brochure with individual titles/issues listed (and the quantity). I'd hate to think what it'd be like now.

"Hmmm, I'd like Wolverine #1."
"Yes, sir, but which Wolverine #1? There's been a few over the last few years."

Crazy.

I like the idea of comics having many issues under their belts. 2000 AD will have its 2000th issue coming up soon (current issue is #1992). What an achievement, 2000 issues? Not saying that quality and quantity necessarily are the same thing, but so bored with seeing #1 nowadays. 

I picked up a Wolverine comic about fifteen years ago. I think the issue may have been something like #114. Last few years, I have lost count of how many times I've seen Wolverine #1 for sale.
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Jason Larouse
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Posted: 04 August 2016 at 6:51pm | IP Logged | 6  

I think that alternate universes were the worst thing to happen to comic books. From the creative side, I'm not counting any of the horrible strictly business decisions. It's been especially terrible for DC over the years but Marvel is catching up rapidly. 
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Brian Floyd
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Posted: 04 August 2016 at 7:23pm | IP Logged | 7  

When I read the title, the first thought I had was `Oh, no. Someone's hired Shooter to ruin my favorite pulp hero.' I'm so glad I was wrong...




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Jason Larouse
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Posted: 04 August 2016 at 7:44pm | IP Logged | 8  

I hate to break it to you Brian but Garth Ennis already ruined him a couple of years ago.
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 05 August 2016 at 4:26am | IP Logged | 9  

I'll tell ya, I LOVED the alternate universes concept!  The annual JLA/JSA team-ups were one of my favorite things and I had no trouble following the logic from age 9 (or maybe a little earlier) on.  And those team-ups were some of the first things I bought back issues of.

In fact, it made perfect sense!  Since I bought both Marvel and DC, I didn't have to wonder why Superman never helped out the Avengers or why Daredevil and Batman never tripped over each other--they were on parallel Earths!  Done and done.

And I loved the AVENGERS by Steve Englehart and George Perez, and the Squadron Supreme arc was one of the best!  Sure, they occupied an Earth in-between the two important Earths!  I loved ALL-STAR COMICS with Wally Wood giving us a squinty-eyed Shuster-ish Superman!  I even loved the MR. & MRS. SUPERMAN feature set in the 50's!  I loved it all!  I never needed any "Earth-merging"--it just ruined the fun!

BUT did Marvel really ever need a second Earth?  Was there ever any real reason the NEW UNIVERSE books had to be set on a different Earth?  Why couldn't they have just been the "next wave" on Marvel-Earth?  And the ULTIMATE line?  Man, I hate reboots in general,and I grew to hate these too.  A grey Hulk that ate people?  A teenage Reed Richards?  A Peter Parker that dated Kitty Pryde?  These weren't the "Ultimate" versions of anything---they were just "Alternate" versions!
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 05 August 2016 at 4:35am | IP Logged | 10  

But the point is--we've had 30 years to look at some of Jim Shooter's policies and fiats and decide they were WRONG!  So, it's just very weird that modern Marvel has taken those ill-conceived fiats and turned their entire line over to them!

Another Shooter fiat that JB has mentoned here is that Shooter enacted the "story told in one issue" fiat during his and Roger Stern's tenure on CAPTAIN AMERICA.  That's one policy that modern Marvel has NOT enacted though--as way too many of their stories seem to go one for twenty issues...and across numerous titles too.  I wouldn't mind some "one and done" stories at Marvel right now!

Of course, I've quit their entire line in the wake of that CAPTAIN AMERICA "Hail Hydra" debacle, and I have no idea how long it'll be before I give them another chance. 


Edited by Eric Jansen on 05 August 2016 at 4:37am
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Bill Collins
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Posted: 05 August 2016 at 5:54am | IP Logged | 11  

I totally agree with Stephen Churay,,my friend passed on to me a copy of the latest Marvel Previews,nearly all the titles were Civil War II tie-ins,variations of classic characters,that i just can`t summon any interest in,and the few titles that were not a combo of those,were just of no interest to me at all,so yes the Marvel universe is impenetrable to mind and wallet!
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Andrew Bitner
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Posted: 05 August 2016 at 7:35am | IP Logged | 12  

Seems as though Marvel (and possibly DC) has gone to a "TV season" model with their books. They're now telling discrete stories, which they collect in TPBs, and never mind the series as an ongoing entity--that model's done.

It also echoes what they want to do with their movie universe. If you get readers used to changing the person behind the heroic identity--how far is that removed from recasting a movie role?

All of this is in pursuit of building (or at least retaining) their readership. Marvel and DC are not making these decisions to drive away readers; REBIRTH is an effort to put back something that's been lost (legacy and personal relationships), and CIVIL WAR II is... I don't know, something else.

It's really not about trashing the properties so much as having no idea what to do that will keep people buying the books.
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