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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 02 August 2016 at 9:23am | IP Logged | 1
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I've often pointed to DC's decision to "darken" Congorilla as the moment it all ran off the rails and "darken it" became the go-to move. But what led up to this? What were the steps that led to an across-the-board obsession with "dark" stories and characters? Certainly, Dark Phoenix plays a part, as does Wolverine. But how far back does it go? Is there a first domino?
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Andrew Bitner
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2004
Location: United States
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| Posted: 02 August 2016 at 9:37am | IP Logged | 2
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That's a really tough question.
When Marvel brought more realistic stories to the medium--particularly stories in which major characters really could die (I'm thinking Gwen Stacy, mostly)--was the die cast?
It could be argued that stories did not have high stakes consequences prior to the Marvel Age. There were certainly *threats* (e.g., Brainiac steals Metropolis), but nothing that carried over from one story to the next.
Now, however, much like a soap opera, the stories were ongoing...and the stakes had to escalate.
It's not hard to see where the plot twists start to come into play--and turning a hero into a villain is almost irresistible.
Edited by Andrew Bitner on 02 August 2016 at 9:37am
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 02 August 2016 at 9:43am | IP Logged | 3
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Gwen Stacy is a good point. Here death happened a little before I got into the Biz, and when I did there were many people who wanted to do their own "death of Gwen Stacy." Then, a remarkably few years later, Chris and I upped the ante, and suddenly everybody wanted their own "death of Phoenix."
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Andrew Bitner
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| Posted: 02 August 2016 at 9:58am | IP Logged | 4
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It's an understandable progression. Escalation starts to take over, the stakes get higher.
I am starting to think that there was no inciting incident, JB, but rather that the paradigm of storytelling itself opened up possibilities--and that led to exploring darker heroes and truly depraved villains.
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Andrew Bitner
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| Posted: 02 August 2016 at 10:01am | IP Logged | 5
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You make an excellent point and I want to acknowledge that-- NOTHING drives escalation like a truly groundbreaking story like those two stories you've mentioned. Everyone wants to be the one who "went one better."
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Larry Lawrence
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| Posted: 02 August 2016 at 10:10am | IP Logged | 6
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Could the popularity of Marvel's Conan the Barbarian led the way? I recall the Atlas line featured almost all killer heroes, two of which were Conan imitations. We also can't forget what was popular at the time, violent vengeful Clint Eastwood and Charles Bronson movies. |
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John M. Jackson
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| Posted: 02 August 2016 at 10:22am | IP Logged | 7
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Maybe when the Spy Smasher was brainwashed and turned evil.
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Jason Larouse
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| Posted: 02 August 2016 at 10:39am | IP Logged | 8
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Would the Harry Osborn drug story be considered "darkening" a character?
***** "Could the popularity of Marvel's Conan the Barbarian led the way? I recall the Atlas line featured almost all killer heroes, two of which were Conan imitations. We also can't forget what was popular at the time, violent vengeful Clint Eastwood and Charles Bronson movies."
Well if you are going to count non super hero comics then you could go all the way back to EC.
Edited by Jason Larouse on 02 August 2016 at 10:40am
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Larry Lawrence
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| Posted: 02 August 2016 at 10:50am | IP Logged | 9
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There was a segment of market with an appetite for killer super heroes. Besides some of the other stuff previously mentioned, some of us flipped over Goodwin & Simonson's Manhunter. Of course, it helped a lot that it was really good.
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Peter Hicks
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| Posted: 02 August 2016 at 11:02am | IP Logged | 10
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I think The Dark Knight Returns was the start of writers going dark as their default approach to any character. Bad events before that such as the death of Gwen Stacey were simply the tragedies that happen in dramatic stories, but they did not provoke Peter Parker to take on the same mindset as the Punisher.
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Daniel Gillotte
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| Posted: 02 August 2016 at 11:05am | IP Logged | 11
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Darker = more serious = more adult?
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John Bodin
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Purveyor of Rare Items
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| Posted: 02 August 2016 at 11:26am | IP Logged | 12
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Does it go all the way back to issue #4 of the Avengers when they found Captain America and we learned about Bucky's death? Was that the first "really dark" moment in modern superhero comics?
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