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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133193
Posted: 23 March 2016 at 9:46pm | IP Logged | 1  

Stumbled quite accidentally upon THIS site this evening, and as I read thru it, especially the comments, I was confronted with a nearly perfect encapsulation of everything that's gone wrong with fandom.

Oh, it's not all bad, to be sure, and there are even flashes of enthusiasm to warm the ol' cockles. But they have to make their way thru some gloomy times. Top of the list:

• Professed expertise where clearly none exists. This leads inevitably to...

• Speculation about behind-the-scenes motives and machinations which are almost entirely wrong.

• Ennui. Buckets of it. "Deconstructing" the most standard tropes of the form. One of the prime warning signs that it's time to find a new hobby.

• Trees in the forest. That sad disability that seems to beset so many fans who are past their use-by date: not being able to separate what THEY know from what the CHARACTERS know.

Ah, well! At least they got that it was Terry adding the Popeyes!

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Doug Centers
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Posted: 24 March 2016 at 6:51am | IP Logged | 2  

That was a fun issue !
As for the "grumblings", my teenage self wasn't too concerned what was going on off panel. Like whether the Danger Room was repaired or not, sheesh just enjoy the comic .
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 24 March 2016 at 6:56am | IP Logged | 3  

• Ennui. Buckets of it. "Deconstructing" the most standard tropes of the form. One of the prime warning signs that it's time to find a new hobby.

***

Agreed. 

I see far too much of this going on. I came across it years ago (not comics) when one guy was deconstructing almost everything about THUNDERBIRDS and claiming a lot of it was unrealistic (he mentioned how Thunderbird 1 would be damaging to the pool when it launched. Really?).
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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133193
Posted: 24 March 2016 at 10:09am | IP Logged | 4  

…my teenage self wasn't too concerned what was going on off panel…

••

Roger Stern used to say that there came a point in the life of every fan where their accumulated knowledge of the characters was such that they needed to either turn pro or stop reading.

Roger said this in the days when turning pro still happened while there were Old Hands on the tiller, ready to steer things back on course when the ship started to drift into the wrong channels. I think we might define those days as being officially over when Mark Gruenwald became a senior editor.

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Doug Centers
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Posted: 24 March 2016 at 12:30pm | IP Logged | 5  

"... I think we might define those days as being officially over when Mark Gruenwald became a senior editor."

...

I now have a new way of describing the eras of Marvel's philosophy; B.G & A.G.
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Don Zomberg
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Posted: 24 March 2016 at 1:21pm | IP Logged | 6  

Still can't believe he fired Roger Stern from Avengers.
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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

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Posts: 133193
Posted: 24 March 2016 at 1:48pm | IP Logged | 7  

Still can't believe he fired Roger Stern from Avengers.

•••

It wasn't quite that simple, but beyond that it is perhaps not my place to comment.

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Fred J Chamberlain
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Posted: 25 March 2016 at 6:43am | IP Logged | 8  

I set up at a local con back in the early 90's in an
attempt to make some money and sell some of my books. The
best part of that experience was meeting Roger and his wife
(Carmella), who were sitting right beside me (with Archie
Goodwin on the other side of them). They were incredibly
kind and friendly. Carmella bought my copy of Amazing
Spider-Man #248 (which I later replaced... yeah, I'm a
dumbass), citing it as her favorite story by her husband.
That experience taught me a very valuable lesson in my
early adulthood. Comic creators are people!!! In every
conversation with creators, celebrities, politicians
since..... I've spoken to them as such. Go figure.
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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

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Posted: 25 March 2016 at 7:13am | IP Logged | 9  

In all my years in comics I cannot say I have ever known anyone whose enthusiasm matched Mark Gruenwald's. I was blown away, upon meeting him, by the breadth of his knowledge of the characters, and of so much of the minutia.

Unfortunately, deep in his heart, Mark was a DC guy. His favorite cover, of which he'd had a large poster made for his home office, was BRAVE AND BOLD 29, the second appearance of the Justice League and, in a way, a defining symbol of what Mark liked best about superhero comics: lots of characters in big battles. So, of course, he loved the "multiverse," which was the ultimate "de-uniquing" of all the characters.

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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 25 March 2016 at 7:40am | IP Logged | 10  

So, of course, he loved the "multiverse," which was the ultimate "de-uniquing" of all the characters.

***

What I don't like about the "multiverse" concept is that it sort of takes away from adventures I've read about.

What I mean is this: I use the Spider-Man/Transformers crossover as an example. When that happened, I thought it was cool that two of my then-favourite franchises were sharing space. Good! But then years later, I'm told that that particular adventure took place on Earth-whatever-the-hell designation!

No mind, at least Superman and Spider-Man once shared an adventure. That's cool, too. But apparently that took place on a different Earth with a different designation.

It doesn't really detract, if I'm honest. I will never forget discovering that Superman/Spider-Man crossover (the second one) for the first time simply by walking into a railway station store. I didn't even know it existed until I saw it. So I'll always have that enjoyment, just like I did with the other DC/Marvel crossovers. But why was there a need to start designating separate earths for the crossovers with Transformers, Godzilla, etc.

One thing I really like about the shared earth approach is the dialogue it led to. I am not interested in talk of multiverses and barriers between universes. On a shared earth, it allows for comments (maybe paraphrasing here) such as Spider-Man saying, "I always thought Superman was overrated and now I know he is" or Batman saying, "I had a file on the Hulk in my Batcave." Such comments were a little awe-inspiring, it validated the fact that it was all taking place on a shared earth.

Incidentally, the most bizarre comment I came across, pertaining to the Spider-Man/Transformers crossover, came from a pedantic fan I knew. He said something like this: "It makes no sense to have giant robots in the Marvel Universe, why haven't the likes of Jonah Jameson, General Ross or superheroes mentioned them before?" This was nutty, in my view. Are we privy to EVERY conversation a character has? No. I found it acceptable to have Transformers in the same world as Spider-Man. How do we know that, off-panel, Spider-Man or Jameson or Bruce Banner hadn't commented on the Transformers? It sounds like over-thinking to me.
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Andrew Bitner
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Posted: 25 March 2016 at 8:56am | IP Logged | 11  

On a busy news day, we're lucky to find out about 1/100th of the things happening; usually, the biggest and loudest news item dominates and everything else is shunted aside.
Why would it be any different in the MU or DCU? Unless it has an immediate bearing on what's happening right that moment, we don't need to know if Spider-Man reflects on his meeting with those giant robots, or Hulk thinks back to his jaunt with the Micronauts, or the Teen Titans met the X-Men but never saw them again, etc etc.
It's okay to just let the stories happen.
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Andrew Bitner
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Posted: 25 March 2016 at 8:57am | IP Logged | 12  

Which is a long way of saying I agree with Robbie 100%.
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