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Topic: STAR TREK: DISCOVERY - New TV Series Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Tyler Kloster
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Posted: 27 February 2019 at 11:25am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Was just about to post that myself, Steve. 

As a Star Trek fan who loves Discovery, I'm really happy with this news.
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 27 February 2019 at 11:59am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Great news!

I do wonder how the negative narrative will shift.  We all know it will. Somehow a third season renewal will be spun by haters as being some sort of sign that the series is doing poorly and is despised by most "true" fans.  I'll be fascinated to watch those mental gymnastics at work. 
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 27 February 2019 at 4:31pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Matt, if your morbid curiosity is like mine and you want to see such a mental gymnastics exposition, check out the links below:


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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 27 February 2019 at 4:34pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Terrible news!


In terms of mental gymnastics, the phrases "saving face", "sunk-cost fallacy", "smoke and mirrors", and "inability to admit failure because we've gambled big on this streaming service" come to mind.
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Tyler Kloster
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Posted: 27 February 2019 at 5:22pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Or....maybe it's a success?
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 27 February 2019 at 7:39pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Greg, why do you even come into this thread? You hate the topic. We all know that, so why bother? Are you trying to convince us that it all really is a piece of shit that rapes all our childhoods and is not worthy of any of our time or attention and we’re wrong for liking it? I just don’t get it. When I don’t dig a topic, I don’t go into the thread. 

Edited by Brian Miller on 27 February 2019 at 7:44pm
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 27 February 2019 at 8:57pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

This is Greg's identity now. It is who he is. And all the other kids on the echo chamber playground think he is so... damn... cool... to come here and speak truth to power. Of course, their truth is that dark skinned people shouldn't be front and center on TV, but hey, identities are hard to come by...

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Jim Muir
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Posted: 28 February 2019 at 3:56am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

I couldn't last 2 minutes through either of those... does anyone actually sit through 2 hour youtube videos???

What I did see was utter nonsense, not least the idea that a studio would pump millions of dollars into a show no-one was watching to 'save face'.
It's a business, like any other... their --only-- reason to exist is to make money.
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 28 February 2019 at 5:36am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

I’d hate for some to have been around when D.C. rebooted in the ‘60’s.
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Tyler Kloster
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Posted: 28 February 2019 at 9:25am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Yeah, I made it about 3/4 of the way through the first short video and 2 minutes into the latter. Insufferable people. I already regret that YouTube's algorithm is going to start steering me towards more videos like these.

Don't know about the 2nd video, but the first one's main logic is that "Discovery can't be a financial success because I hate it".

Also wanted to punch the smug bastard in the first one when he made fun of the new co-show runner's lack of experience making science fiction, conveniently forgetting to mention that certain other important people in Star Trek production history had no prior experience with sci-fi:

Gene Roddenberry
Gene Coon
Harve Bennett (on the movie side, but still)
Rick Berman
Michael Piller
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 28 February 2019 at 9:48am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

That is a fun thought experiment, James...

"One thing I cannot abide about these new 'Halanbarries' as I call the ignorant fans of National's latest debacle is their utter lack of political awareness. What do these new, indecently clad exhibitionist versions of our great heroes think about the world? Do they vote? Back in the 40's, when comics were readable, we knew who our heroes were and what they believed in. They rose to the challenges of this complex, shifting world. They went to war. They fought Germany. And Japan. Wimpy, crybaby lil' Halanbarries have no global perspective. What do our "new" National heroes support or oppose? Space aliens? Clowns in snow suits? Their own reflections? These new stories (and I'm being generous even calling them that) are vacuous exercises in dumbing down the reading public, a public that wants heroes of substance, who are willing to make a sacrifice. Wallpaper-paste plain civilian agendas do not interest me and I have to wonder about the patriotism of a company like National that promotes them so heavily...

"For an example of how to do a restart correctly we need to look at Atlas and what they did with their wartime heroes at the start of the 1950's, Captain America, the Human Torch, and the always entertaining Sub-Mariner. First off, they gave us the men themselves and not some half-assed "replacement" versions. Steve was Steve with good ol' loyal Bucky right there beside him. (Can you ever imagine it not being so?) Namor was Namor, looking more splendid than ever. Fiery Jim Hammond was Jim Hammond and nobody else. God bless Atlas. You can be certain that they will never give us some upstart, ersatz Human Torch in a one-piece jumper, flying around under some other name.

"Atlas's reborn heroes fought Communism, a threat that we still face today in these tense, complicated times and fought to preserve America's shores from the encroachment of these parasitic, opportunistic ideologues who wish to wrest Our Country from us. Publishing concerns and the vicissitudes of the newsstands took these fine Atlas products from us too soon; clearly too soon for National to have properly learned the lessons they taught.

"Instead, they give test pilots, not war pilots, and civilian policemen who think "crime is bad." There's a complex worldview for you. And I'll leave it to you to imagine what agendas are served by having these monotone civilians run about in the altogether without the decency to throw on so much as a proper shirt... These are difficult times we're facing. National is doing us no favors with these Un-American, morally lax pretenders. What are the Halanbarries thinking? Jay and Alan would be sick, I tell you. Sick. As we all should be. For God's sake, where is your decency, National?"

How was that? Can I get my sock puppet money in 1959 dollars? :-)


Edited by Brian Hague on 28 February 2019 at 10:07am
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 28 February 2019 at 12:41pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

 Jim Muir wrote:
It's a business, like any other... their --only-- reason to exist is to make money.

This.  It's called show business for a reason. Not a chance in hell that CBS continues to sink millions and millions of dollars over three or more seasons just to "save face" or as a "smoke and mirrors" ploy.  Zero.  

As to the "sunk cost fallacy" here's the definition:

The Sunk Cost Fallacy. The Misconception: You make rational decisions based on the future value of objects, investments and experiences. The Truth: Your decisions are tainted by the emotional investments you accumulate, and the more you invest in something the harder it becomes to abandon it.

Again, CBS is a business.  It's run by people whose very careers depend on viewership.  DISCOVERY is a series, along with THE GOOD FIGHT, that CBS used to launch it's entire streaming service.  If it did not bring in a significant subscriber base, enough to justify a second season let alone a third, it would have been dropped cold.  It's that very success that is driving CBS to create more not less ST content.  If DISCOVERY had been a failure as Greg and a small but vocal contingent of rabid conspiracy nuts proclaim it is, then the property would once again lie fallow for a period of time.  No amount of "saving face" or "sunk cost fallacy" would justify its rather enormous budget.
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Paul Gibney
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Posted: 28 February 2019 at 2:39pm | IP Logged | 13 post reply

 Brian Hague wrote:
Of course, their truth is that dark skinned people shouldn't be front and center on TV, but hey, identities are hard to come by...

Hold on, now, Brian Hague. If someone doesn't enjoy Discovery, it can only be because they are racist or sexist? There can be no other reason to dislike the show? I think you have crossed a line here.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 28 February 2019 at 3:29pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

 Paul Gibney wrote:
Hold on, now, Brian Hague. If someone doesn't enjoy Discovery, it can only be because they are racist or sexist?

Brian said no such thing.

There's a difference between not enjoying DISCOVERY and coming up with ridiculous conspiracy theories about how it's a big failure that is only being propped up in order to advance a social agenda. He was not talking about the former.
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Victor Perez
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Posted: 28 February 2019 at 3:44pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

Re: Also wanted to punch the smug bastard in the first one when he made fun of the new co-show runner's lack of experience making science fiction, conveniently forgetting to mention that certain other important people in Star Trek production history had no prior experience with sci-fi:

Tyler, I had the same reaction to the videos and the bit you mentioned above (except that I also almost felt like I needed to take a shower after abandoning the first video 2/3 of the way in. What is it with the creepy voices of some of these vloggers? Is that a thing?)  

It’s like knocking the announcement of Babylon 5 because J. Michael Straczynski’s prior claim to fame was Murder She Wrote, Jake And The Fartman, She-Ra and Captain Power.



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Victor Perez
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Posted: 28 February 2019 at 3:48pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

Re: That is a fun thought experiment, James...

Brian, thanks for that... Epic!
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Paul Gibney
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Posted: 28 February 2019 at 3:49pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

Michael, if I somehow misread the quote that I showed, I apologize, but it doesn't seem ambiguous to me.The full quote was:
 Brian Hague wrote:
This is Greg's identity now. It is who he is. And all the other kids on the echo chamber playground think he is so... damn... cool... to come here and speak truth to power. Of course, their truth is that dark skinned people shouldn't be front and center on TV, but hey, identities are hard to come by...
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 28 February 2019 at 4:04pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

I really don't understand the need to have something you don't like be a failure to somehow justify you not liking it.  It seems like massive insecurity.  I mean, I've mentioned a couple times on the board that I really truly dislike the Big Bang Theory.  But I fully acknowledge that the show has been incredibly popular and successful.  Its run for 12 seasons for Pete's sake.  And it has a spinoff that's been renewed for several years.  Its hugely popular, including among friends of mine.

But though I've mentioned my not liking it a couple of times on the board when it came up, I don't haunt the threads about it.  I don't watch every episode (or any episodes really after the couple I originally sampled) and post snarky reviews.  I don't keep up on news about the show and its actors in order to crap all over it.  In fact, to make this post, I had to google how many seasons it had run because I knew it was a bunch, but didn't know the exact number.

I have to think that that's the normal person's way of not liking something.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 28 February 2019 at 4:06pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

Michael, if I somehow misread the quote that I showed, I apologize, but it doesn't seem ambiguous to me.The full quote was: 

-----

You didn't misread the quote, but you are missing a ton of context from this thread and several other threads. The "echo chamber playground" is referring to the GamerGate/ComicsGate crowd that tries to argue that their favorite forms of entertainment are being destroyed by identity politics and social agendas.

If you just think that DISCOVERY sucks and doesn't interest you, then that is not referring to you.


Edited by Michael Roberts on 28 February 2019 at 4:14pm
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Victor Perez
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Posted: 28 February 2019 at 4:31pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

Paul, Michael,

I think the spectrum is something like this:

Type 1: Symptoms of “disliking/not enjoying a TV show” — not watching it, occasionally sharing why you dislike it

Type 2: Symptoms of being angry/sad that your TV show’s canon (I can spell now) is being f’d with: — watching it in the hope that things will get better, occasionally venting to people who might understand you even if they disagree

Type 3: Symptoms of identity politics derangement syndrome — hatewatching, making angry/creepy videos about conspiracy theories, ranting about MarySues... when you are a dude, obsessing about udders and green milk, decrying hidden social agendas/obvious social agendas (with pretzel logic, like: “sure gene roddenberry had an agenda, but it was different, plus he didn’t beat you over the head with it. And he showed both sides. And many people don’t know this but I have nieces and nephews who are people of color, etc., etc.)

(No, he didn’t beat you on the head, it went over your head because you were 10 when you fell in love with it. Or something.)

Would like to think the folks who are sour on Discovery here are more Type 2 than Type 3.


Edited by Victor Perez on 28 February 2019 at 4:40pm
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 28 February 2019 at 4:39pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

The video below is a great debunking of the 'Discovery isn't canon' arguments that Greg linked before, including the '25% fallacy" that almost all of this is based on.

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Victor Perez
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Posted: 28 February 2019 at 5:14pm | IP Logged | 22 post reply

Re: The video below is a great debunking of the 'Discovery isn't canon' arguments that Greg linked before, including the '25% fallacy" that almost all of this is based on.

That dude should run for President.
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 28 February 2019 at 7:37pm | IP Logged | 23 post reply

...when you are a dude, obsessing about udders and green milk

Uh, wut?
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 28 February 2019 at 8:40pm | IP Logged | 24 post reply

Star Wars
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 28 February 2019 at 9:31pm | IP Logged | 25 post reply

Victor, thank you. That was fun to write.

Paul, Greg's comments against DISCOVERY have not been occurring in a vacuum. He has gone on at length concerning the way in which "forced diversity" and liberal agendas have subverted a number of popular franchises and links to sites claiming this is some sort of coordinated conspiracy going back decades. He's cited THE ORVILLE as an example of "how to do diversity right," something which apparently involves people of color remaining as supporting characters and taking orders from good looking white people, right from the get-go. (Apparently bringing them in to take over the show in Season Two isn't sufficient...) 

In my earlier post, I characterized the echo chambers in which Greg tells us he finds spiritual comfort as racist in nature. I did not say that anyone who dislikes DISCOVERY is racist. My comments were specific to Greg and moreover, his slanted websites and unsubstantiated sources. I myself have seen four episodes the show and am not keen to continue with it for a number of reasons regarding the writing. 

For example, in episode three, the walls are leaking water and Michael asks her roommate what's going on. The roommate turns away, frightened, saying that if Michael doesn't know, she can't say anything about it. Next episode, everyone's chattering away about the spore drive as if it's last night's baseball scores. Also, in episode three, Michael will not serve under Lorca because she will not be party to the weaponization of science and turning Starfleet into a war machine. Lorca is able to convince her he is really all about exploration and wonder, earning her provisional respect. First thing next episode, he puts her in a lab and says, "Weaponize everything in here." Somehow this flies with Michael. The whole thing tends to play as a series of lesser Enterprise episodes from their Season Three. 

It's Greg's insistence that Marvel, Star Trek, Star Wars, and others have been taken captive by toxic liberals with evil diversity agendas that I question and his links to sites that go even further in their screeds against female stars and dark-skinned leads. It's his constant "Get Woke, Go Broke" drum-banging and bizarre analogy that diversity is a failed "transplant" that "the body of fandom" is rejecting that I find distasteful. I do ask that when the only thing that will pacify the haters is for people of color to be removed from center stage and an end be put to diverse casting, how can their position be anything but racist?


Edited by Brian Hague on 28 February 2019 at 9:37pm
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