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Richard Stevens
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Posted: 11 October 2017 at 6:38am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Or it will be a space where we can hang out with Michael and her pals for a while and get some Star Trek! She no more implausibly goes from error to hero than Peter Parker did in his first couple outings.
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 11 October 2017 at 8:17am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

I can't imagine the guilt complex Peter would have if he thought he was responsible for the deaths of over 8000 people rather than one. 

 The only way they are even remotely similar as far as redemption arcs go is if you use orange paint on the apples. 
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 11 October 2017 at 2:10pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Speaking as a Filipino-American and an Asian-American, I can answer that part:
+++++


I have no idea how my insane predictive speller turned "Filipino" into "Phillipino"! Apologies!



Edited by Greg Kirkman on 11 October 2017 at 2:21pm
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 11 October 2017 at 2:28pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

I have no idea how my insane predictive speller turned "Filipino" into "Phillipino"! Apologies!

----

No worries. It's far from the first time I've seen it spelled that way. :)
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 11 October 2017 at 2:33pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

when you say that Luke had to work at it, well not 
to hard. He saves the galaxy more or less and destroys the Death Star in what 
2 days after leaving the farm with no fighter pilot training except for 10 
minutes in a totally different ship with Han?
+++++++

It was established via dialogue that Luke had flight experience, though. It may not hold up to close scrutiny, unless flight controls in STAR WARS spaceships are all fairly universal, but it was established. The idea was that Luke basically wasted time on Tatooine flying around in his Skyhopper, and badly wanted to be a starpilot.

TFA gives no indication of where or how poor desert scavenger Rey learned how to fly and maintain spaceships. Deleted scenes and novels may very well fill in those gaps, but it's not explained or hinted at in the film proper.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 11 October 2017 at 2:55pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

have no idea how my insane predictive speller turned "Filipino" into "Phillipino"! Apologies!

----

No worries. It's far from the first time I've seen it spelled that way. :)
+++++++

Seriously, I'm getting a new iPad for Christmas. My predictive speller often doesn't even recognize "the" as a word. I scream at the iPad often. It often turns my words into gobbledygook, even proper nouns and names. Hate it.


Now, if I can get personal for a moment...

I would also like to say, Michael, that I appreciate us both laying our respective races out on the table. As I've noted, one advantage of the Internet is that everyone gets to have their say without race or gender creating preconceived notions. I have never put anyone in this forum on "ignore". Ever. Everyone has a right to their opinion. On the flipside, people who might disagree when reading mere words on a screen could very well get along like best friends if they were having the same discussion together in the same room.

We may respectfully disagree on topics like this, but I believe that people can still come to an understanding if they try. In daily life, I try and give all people from all walks of life a fair shake, and show compassion and kindness when it would be easier not to. And I've paid for it, in some cases. I've been stabbed in the back by people I've trusted, and people I've gone out of my way to be kind to. But, I keep trying. In my interpersonal relations, I tend to gravitate more toward freaks and outsiders like myself, anyway. Like minds tend to stick together.

It really is important to judge people by the content of their character, rather than by their surface characteristics. Most of my close friends in high school were minorities (...and not just because most of the other White kids ostracized me for being too nerdy!). Several of my closest current friends are lesbians. It would certainly be my loss if I'd allowed surface differences to get in the way of actual human connections. Diversity is absolutely a good thing. Kindness is the way to go, always. I just can't help but be cynical when it comes to the motives of Hollywood. Ultra-liberal Hollywood agendas are perhaps just as wrongheaded as ultra-conservatism and fascism, I think. Life is about balance. Extremes are dangerous.

As I've noted before, I'm not a fan of politics. I suppose I have a rather naive and simple outlook regarding how things should be. We should all just get along, and use compassion as our guide. Unfortunately, my trust in people and faith in the world has been shaken, over the past few years, and so I've become rather paranoid in my outlook. 
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Marten van Wier
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Posted: 13 October 2017 at 4:11pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/star-trek-discovery/news/a84057 3/star-trek-discovery-doesnt-contradict-original-series/

* * * * *

I guess I could say nasty things or start insulting but I won't.
But even if I did not have this limitation that sometimes makes conversations for me so frustrating to talk with people I would still not want to talk to this person and try to make clear to him why he is so very wrong. He probably would not even be willing to listen on why he is mistaken.

The "Spore Drive" for example is not only incompatible with TOS, it doesn't get anywhere near scientifically plausible, rather bordering instead on "space magic".
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 13 October 2017 at 5:22pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

The "Spore Drive" for example is not only incompatible with TOS
--------------------------------------------------------
I have my issues with the series, too, as expressed before, but I think what he's saying in the article is that as long as they arrive at the point of TOS, in terms of continuity, by the end of 10 years, there's not a problem.  I'm pretty sure there's a 'Spore Drive' related disaster coming up.  We've already seen the seeds for its abandonment, since it requires the torture of a sentient creature in order to operate.  Since Discovery has been set up as a fringe science research ship (and likely Section 31 to boot), they can experiment with all kinds of stuff that won't exist on a Federation flagship like the Enterprise, either because it will be classified, abandoned, rejected, or all of the above by that time.

Heck, for all we know, they'll start fiddling with time travel or something and wipe themselves out of existence at the end of the show.  That was the original plan for the third NuTrek film, for it to wipe out the Kelvin timeline and end the experiment.
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 13 October 2017 at 5:26pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Also, I don't mind the approach they're taking to visual updates.  They're essentially now just saying, "Its the same stuff, but it looks better because we can make it look better."  This is basically the approach the TOS movies took to things like the Klingons, the tech on the ships, the clothing, the aliens, etc.  That's also the approach TNG took in the beginning.

The problem is, later on in the spinoffs, they took a different approach, more like comic book continuity, of wanting to explain all the differences.  This culminated in Enterprise giving unnecessary explanations for everything (augment Klingons anyone?)  They now want fans to just accept that these are the same Klingons, this is the same Starfleet, these are the same ships, etc. etc. they just have a different, more contemporary aesthetic.  But that isn't what they've trained Trek fans to do over the last 25 years. 
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 14 October 2017 at 11:37pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Viewscreen vs window. TOS vs JJ verse.
For me, it is as simple as that
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 14 October 2017 at 11:42pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Midnight's Edge roundtable on episode 4:

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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 15 October 2017 at 8:58am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Well if they are going to get to TOS in a decade then they are really going to have to work hard to cripple both the Klingons and the Federation within the storyline.

*The augment virus will have  to rear it's ugly head again (pun intended).  Perhaps it will re-emerge in their culture after 100 years of latency or be re-used by the Federation (after all, Section 31 was involved at it's inception, and if the S.31 rumors are true..). I'm assuming here that it's now spread to almost every Klingon in the empire -- including the patriarch of House Kor (why do I think that TOS Kor is going to be a smooth headed Klingon named in honour of their patriarch instead of the real deal).

*I've already crowed on enough about the holoviewer conundrum.  Yes, they've given extra-media explanations but it's really just whitewashing just so they can have 'kewl' looking stuff in the show.

*I like to think the nifty looking black ops away team gear is an update of the contemporary away team jackets seen in 'The Cage' -- or at least another alternate clothing choice like the desert gear.  All of that disappears by TOS, but the away jackets sort of make a reappearance in TMP.  Yep, I understand it was a budgetary issue for TOS but you can either work in a throwaway explanation -- TAS has the 'environment belts' that let you wear regular clothing, for example -- or you can just ignore it and say they did have things like cold weather gear for landing parties but you just never saw it.   I feel DISCOVERY is just going to ignore what TOS stuff doesn't fit their visual style but the creators will still pay a lot of lip service to their slavish coherence to TOS canon.

It's not just the look.  As I've stated before, the look can be tastefully updated to something palatable for today's audiences yet still evoke what made the TOS and the pilots designs so great.   I'll step out on a limb and say the majority of old school TREK fans would be happy with something that looked reasonably like it took place when they said it took place.  I'm sure there are purists who would want nothing short of a recreation of a 1960's budget on their HDTV -- even if you did that I'm sure they will find some other continuity point to stick in their craw.  These fans had already decided they weren't going to be happy anyway.

The tech itself will have to undergo a serious nerfing to be anything like TOS.  So either it gets 'lost' or 'erased, neither of which is very palatable to me  -- a solution without a problem.   They should have just set the show after TNG and played in an open sandbox instead of taking over Gene's sandbox and adding pretty looking designer buckets and spades.



Edited by Rob Ocelot on 15 October 2017 at 8:58am
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 15 October 2017 at 10:19am | IP Logged | 13 post reply

I like to think the nifty looking black ops away team gear is an update of the contemporary away team jackets seen in 'The Cage' -- or at least another alternate clothing choice like the desert gear.  All of that disappears by TOS, but the away jackets sort of make a reappearance in TMP.  Yep, I understand it was a budgetary issue for TOS but you can either work in a throwaway explanation -- TAS has the 'environment belts' that let you wear regular clothing, for example -- or you can just ignore it and say they did have things like cold weather gear for landing parties but you just never saw it.   I feel DISCOVERY is just going to ignore what TOS stuff doesn't fit their visual style but the creators will still pay a lot of lip service to their slavish coherence to TOS canon.

++++++

A) LANDING. PARTY.

B) TOS established that the standard duty uniforms have temperature controls, which would mostly eliminate the need for specialty gear. Introducing a bunch of specialty uniforms is sort of like how Iron Man went from one all-purpose suit to a whole bunch of suits for different environments and missions.

C) Doing mental gymnastics to get DISCOVERY to dovetail with TOS is a fool's errand. Paying attention to continuity beyond a superficial/fanwank sort of way is clearly not what the show's producers have in mind. Square peg, round hole. This seems to be where genre fandom is at, now: as long as creators pay the barest lip-service to established concepts, fans will bend over backwards to "make it fit", no matter how insane, insulting, or stupid it all is.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 15 October 2017 at 11:00am | IP Logged | 14 post reply

Someone once said "the Future is just like the Past, only longer."

Many manufacturers of science-fiction seem to have embraced this. For the past forty years or so, mostly since ALIEN, "futuristic" has seemed to mean busy, but recognizable. Microbrains love to mock the tech on TOS, but to those of us who watched in 1966, those simple, clean lines looked to be advanced way beyond what we had. (Common complaint: "Sulu drives the whole ship with one small panel of buttons." Yes, but THINK about that. He drives the whole ship with one small panel of buttons! How advanced is that?!)

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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 15 October 2017 at 11:09am | IP Logged | 15 post reply

A) LANDING. PARTY.

Thanks for the correction.  

B) TOS established that the standard duty uniforms have temperature controls, which would mostly eliminate the need for specialty gear. Introducing a bunch of specialty uniforms is sort of like how Iron Man went from one all-purpose suit to a whole bunch of suits for different environments and missions.

That's the 'Spocks Brain' reference, right?   I would go one further, as the TAS environment belts would also protect exposed skin from the elements, which the climate controled TOS uniforms don't address.   Like the transporter, it's a TV budget-borne solution rather than one done for practical in-story reasons.  Which is fine.

C) Doing mental gymnastics to get DISCOVERY to dovetail with TOS is a fool's errand. Paying attention to continuity beyond a superficial/fanwank sort of way is clearly not what the show's producers have in mind. Square peg, round hole. This seems to be where genre fandom is at, now: as long as creators pay the barest lip-service to established concepts, fans will bend over backwards to "make it fit", no matter how insane, insulting, or stupid it all is.

I'm afraid you're right.   

To be quite honest I'm surprised there isn't some sort of backlash against the fans who are critical of the show in a similar vein to the revamped GHOSTBUSTERS.  ie, if you criticize the show then you obviously aren't a real STAR TREK fan (or worse).  Perhaps that's coming, as there does seem to be a "this is STAR TREK and you'll like it" attitude that pervades both the production and promotion of the show.

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 15 October 2017 at 5:09pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

That's the 'Spocks Brain' reference, right?   I would go one further, as the TAS environment belts would also protect exposed skin from the elements, which the climate controled TOS uniforms don't address.   Like the transporter, it's a TV budget-borne solution rather than one done for practical in-story reasons.  Which is fine.
++++++++

Yeah, the forcefields belts are both futuristic, and budget-friendly. The climate-controlled uniforms are fine for typical M-class worlds, and then you break out the belts for more inhospitable environments.

++++++++
afraid you're right.   

To be quite honest I'm surprised there isn't some sort of backlash against the fans who are critical of the show in a similar vein to the revamped GHOSTBUSTERS.  ie, if you criticize the show then you obviously aren't a real STAR TREK fan (or worse).  Perhaps that's coming, as there does seem to be a "this is STAR TREK and you'll like it" attitude that pervades both the production and promotion of the show.
++++++++

The thing is that a lot of fans of both STAR TREK and GHOSTBUSTERS would be happier if A) CBS just came out and said DISCOVERY was a reboot and/or set on the Abramsverse; B) GHOSTBUSTERS (2016) was a legitimate sequel, instead of a gender-swapped remake of the beloved original.

It all comes down fans just wanting some respect for the source material, instead of new iterations trying to piggyback on the original concepts and canon (DISCOVERY) or remake/supplant it (GHOSTBUSTERS).

A heck of a lot of the reviews for DISCOVERY that I've seen come from fans who sound like they're trying to convince themselves that the show is good and/or that they like it, simply because they feel obligated to be loyal to the STAR TREK brand name. Heck, even people who outright hate the show keep watching, both to "see where it goes", and because it's called "STAR TREK".


My favorite review of the latest episode described it as "the best episode yet, because it's a 'D-' instead of an 'F'".
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 15 October 2017 at 5:17pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

Someone once said "the Future is just like the Past, only longer."

Many manufacturers of science-fiction seem to have embraced this. For the past forty years or so, mostly since ALIEN, "futuristic" has seemed to mean busy, but recognizable. Microbrains love to mock the tech on TOS, but to those of us who watched in 1966, those simple, clean lines looked to be advanced way beyond what we had. (Common complaint: "Sulu drives the whole ship with one small panel of buttons." Yes, but THINK about that. He drives the whole ship with one small panel of buttons! How advanced is that?!)

++++++++

I think part of that comes down to the subliminal influence of real-world technology. A lot of modern technology we think of as advanced (space shuttles, for example), have lots of buttons and doodads. More buttons= more capabilities= more high-tech. But, that's in OUR modern world, not a theoretical future. 

On the flipside, an iPad has three buttons and a touchscreen, and can do a ridiculous amount of stuff. Which is very TOS-ish.


Over time, I've become more and more approving of the design of the NX-01, in part because it's much, much clunkier when you set it next to a Constitution class ship. By comparison, the Constitutions look incredibly sleek and futuristic, which was Doug Drexler's intent in the design of NX-01. 

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Steve De Young
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Posted: 15 October 2017 at 7:39pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

Itís complicated.  Other than Starfleet personnel dropping f-bombs, the problems mostly arenít at script level.  If these scripts were being played out on ships that looked like Pikeís Enterprise, in Pike era uniforms, with Klingons that looked like Klingons, I think I would like this show.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 15 October 2017 at 8:16pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

The thing it comes down to is that TREK continuity has drifted away from its roots across the board. The tech, the tone, the Klingons, etc.

The TNG/Berman era has had a long reach, since it lasted for nearly 20 years. There are many, many more hours of "honorable" Klingons with head-ridges who spoke in their native tongue than there are of smooth-headed Klingons being ruthless and cutthroat.

DISCOVERY basically looks and feels like a mish-mash of Abrams and Berman-era TREK done in a modern, serialized format, set during the TOS era. These are all flavors which don't taste particularly well together.

Perhaps most importantly, it seems that the ethos of TREK has been lost. Again, I'm speaking only from what I saw of the premiere, but the characters don't particularly seem to like/respect each other, or work well together. The show seems to have embraced the modernistic, "dog eat dog", antihero-focused storytelling style which has become the norm for dramatic TV. And which is the antithesis of what STAR TREK stands for. 

Because, for all of the ethical questions that TREK raises, there's still a certain moral absolutism to the show's foundation. In the future, we'll have gotten over our petty differences, and will go out together into space to broaden our knowledge of the universe, and to bring truth and justice to those who need it. That positive, hopeful vision of the future is why TREK has endured. Shadow governments and intergalactic wars have had their place in TREK history, but those concepts are not the foundational basis for good STAR TREK. 

Characters who genuinely like each other, work well together, and strive for the greater good are a vital element which seems to have been lost. It's also why THE ORVILLE works where DISCOVERY doesn't.


Edited by Greg Kirkman on 15 October 2017 at 8:17pm
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 15 October 2017 at 8:37pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

For what itís worth, and again, this is script level, the way the Klingons are portrayed is much closer to TOS.  No samurai honor here.  In the new episode, Lorca says he destroyed his previous ship so his crew wouldnít be taken back to Qíonos and publically tortured to death as a terror tactic to keep colony worlds in line...

...if only they didnít look so completely wrong.
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 15 October 2017 at 9:36pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

One thing I forgot to mention about Episode 2 that kind of stuck in my craw:

At one point the English subtitles mention "Sto'vo'kor",which is a phonetic English language approximation of a word in Klingon within the STAR TREK universe. Sort of like how French phrases like je ne sais quoi are now spoken like they are part of the English language.  The problem is you never actually hear the word "Sto'vo'kor" spoken in the actual Klingon dialogue, yet that's how the word is supposed to sound in Klingonese.  I don't speak fluent Klingon but this is a well known phrase/word from TNG-era STAR TREK.  

I know this really shouldn't bother me as it's a pretty minor detail but to me it's almost emblematic of the issues with this show. 

Pretty much since Klingons were shown speaking their language on screen in TMP fans (both amateur and fans-turned-pro) have been carefully building a spoken Klingon language that people can actually converse with.  As much as I think it's lame that someone chooses to learn a made-up language to impress people at work rather than a real world useful language you have to admire the commitment and passion of the people involved.  It became a regular fixture in the TNG era shows and it's consistency was cross checked to the point where it was someone's job it ensure the scripts had proper spoken Klingon.  A real life case of fan participation influencing the franchise in a positive way.

While I think DISCOVERY looks slick and pays surface-y lip service to STAR TREK trappings I feel there's an almost willful negligence in it's consistency with the rest of everything STAR TREK (yes, even the Abrams films).  It's as if DISCOVERY needs so bad to be it's own thing it's forgetting what it's actually supposed to be.  

Now it could simply be a case of someone changing the subtitled dialogue at the last minute thinking that with all the marble-mouthed gibberish the Klingons were speaking no one would actually notice.

Well, I noticed.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 15 October 2017 at 11:08pm | IP Logged | 22 post reply

So, a review for the latest episode mentioned that the episode named Starfleet's most decorated Captains: DISCOVERY's own Captain Georgiou, Matt Decker (from "The Doomsday Machine"), Robert April (first Captain of Kirk's Enterprise), Jonathan Archer (Captain of the NX-01 Enterprise), and Chris Pike (second Captain of Kirk's Enterprise).

That's some major navel-gazing fanwank AND universe-shrinking all in one go!


Edited by Greg Kirkman on 16 October 2017 at 12:23am
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 15 October 2017 at 11:28pm | IP Logged | 23 post reply

I've avoided DISCOVERY entirely at this point. I didn't see the pilot and have no interest in signing up for CBS Access so I can look at this and old episodes of Maude. 

As near as I can tell, however, in following this thread, there is literally no reason whatsoever for this show to be set in the timeline where it is. Once upon a time, back when Fuller was still attached to this, there was a rumor of an alternate-dimensional Sarek entity who was also simultaneously the Romulan and Klingon Commanders, all of whom had been played by Mark Lenard. Theoretically, this would "answer" that long-standing question burning at the heart of Star Trek fandom since the 1979 motion picture and "Journey to Babel" as to how, how, how those three characters could look so much alike??? Yes, the central question to the entire franchise was going to finally be addressed! The question that no one dared utter!! 

Or rather, the entire reason for this placement in the timeline was to service one member of the creative team's need for a reflexive bit of fannish self-abuse at the expense of the network, viewers, and anyone else concerned with the project. Having a younger Sarek around to be at the heart of this idiocy was pretty much the only tie this show had to Pike's era.

Now, apparently, the show has gone off in other directions (and thank a thousand star heavens for that) and there is no longer any reason to hammer this misfit into place where they have. Burnham could be the adopted daughter of any prominent, respected Vulcan. Unless they're planning to bring in a bushy-eyebrowed Spock in Robert Dawn ears at some point, ala' Superman on the CW Supergirl show to be her approving big brother, the whole Pike era connection is a complete wash. 

They'd be better off at this point pulling that "American Story" card out from the bottom of their marked deck and saying, "And now, a different story of the Star Trek Universe, with the same cast all playing different roles!" Seriously, this "Sybok II: The Wrath of Michael" stuff doesn't seem to be lighting anyone on fire.

Not that I'd be too eager to jump aboard an anthology from this team, either. Jason Isaacs was wrong in my case at the very least. I really can eat just one Lays, and not one more and more. 


Edited by Brian Hague on 15 October 2017 at 11:35pm
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 15 October 2017 at 11:30pm | IP Logged | 24 post reply

What, no Captain Garth?? His missions were required reading at the Academy! Outrage! (to paraphrase Frank Cho's Spider-Gwen...)

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 16 October 2017 at 12:23am | IP Logged | 25 post reply

As near as I can tell, however, in following this thread, there is literally no reason whatsoever for this show to be set.
++++++++

A leading fan theory is that this show is actually set in the Mirror universe (which still doesn't make sense, going by what we know of that universe), and that the upcoming "Mirror" episode will cross DISCOVERY over with the proper TOS universe. 

I can see CBS pulling a stunt like this for "clever" publicity ("You thought you knew where this show was going, but check out this major twist!"), but I can also see it as fans jumping through hoops to explain all of the irreconcilable differences between DISCOVERY and TOS.
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