Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum
Topic: The Supergirl Conundrum... (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
Posted: 04 January 2016 at 4:48pm | IP Logged | 1  

I just received an email "reminder" from DC about new episodes of the
SUPERGIRL series, and it reminds me of my big issue with Supergirl as a
character and concept.

There's a quote from JB in the FAQ that I think goes to the heart of the
matter for me: "Writing MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE and, later, THE THING I very
quickly realized it was hard to come up with a good Thing story which was
not, by definition, a good FF story. So I had Ben stay on the Beyonder's
BattleWorld so that he could do some stuff he couldn't do on Earth, and
thus justify (in my own mind at least) why he had his own book."

Supergirl isn't even like Batgirl, who lacks the training -- physical and
mental -- of Batman. Barbara Gordon also lacks the financial resources of
Bruce Wayne (no Batmobile or military arsenal in her utility belt). I can
imagine a threat that could effectively challenge her without having to
resort to using Batman villains (who would either be "slumming" or would
suddenly find themselves losing to someone who is clearly not the equal of
their normal foe). But Supergirl is an alien with god-like powers. Training
and experience can explain why she's no match for her cousin but still, even
if she's half as good, she's still at the end of the day -- I repeat -- an alien
with god-like powers.

So, how do you craft challenges for Supergirl that aren't, in fact, "jobs for
Superman"? I suppose you can take the "island book" approach, which I
normally support but I think that's why the character has never worked for
me.

And I should clarify that she's never worked for me once she was "revealed
to the world." As Superman's "secret weapon," she had personal challenges
that was unique to herself (trying to keep her identity secret, and so on). It
astounds me that a TV series would choose to start at the point when
historically she's had problems keeping a title afloat (no longer an orphan,
no longer a student, publicly known, and so on).

Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
Posted: 04 January 2016 at 5:13pm | IP Logged | 2  

Three ways.
1) Present her with battles or challenges that task even her super powers. The problem with this is that such confrontations are almost always loaded with bystanders-as-casualties. Of course, that is a problem of its own, which leads to...
2) Present her with psychological challenges that her powers can't match. Hiding her secret identity (not that she does that so much... :P ), deal with negative public reaction to everything she does - and legitimately, the bad stuff is the stuff that gets reported, or some villain that tries to drive her crazy.
3) Pull the old Luthor treatment (and when, I wonder, will Nasthalthia Luthor appear?) Battle the very, very strong with the very, very smart-and-nasty. "Supergirl, while you're tangling with my giant spider, four people in four lead-enclosed chambers in National City are about to see their very own bombs go off. And here's that kryptonite webbing I know you've been waiting for!"

The challenge to Supergirl is the same that there's been to Superman - just with a little bit less experienced and little lower powered hero.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
Posted: 04 January 2016 at 5:38pm | IP Logged | 3  

Well, back in the 90's Supergirl was Lex Luthor's girlfriend. You couldn't put Superman through THAT.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 8515
Posted: 05 January 2016 at 12:26am | IP Logged | 4  

Joe, I think you're selling DC short. The Luthor-Superman big-bear/bitch-boy relationship is probably the very next thing on Grant Morrison's plate right after he's finished re-contextualizing BDSM back into Wonder Woman this spring...

Marvelites tend to overstate the "god-like powers" of Superman and the rest of the Superman Family. Everyday, Earthbound villains cause significant trouble for them. The unfortunately-shown ability to thread an entire planetary system on a cable and fly it about the cosmos at will doesn't actually help much when it comes to taking out the Prankster. Superman takes his lumps as much as any hero. Marvelites cut the Silver Surfer and any number of similarly, cosmic-powered Marvel heroes slack but somehow Superman and co. are always "god-like," "alien," "remote," and "impossible to identify with." Spider-Man beat up Firelord and wasn't in his cosmic phase at the time. He has had cosmic phases, though. Aw, but, y'know, it's Peter. We all know Peter! Clark Kent, he's just... well, y'know... so... I don't even want to say it out loud, but he's so... D.C, y'know? Eww, right?

Marvel is at least as overpowered as DC, but you never hear Marvelites bitch about how an infinite number of parallel timeline versions of the Cosmic Cube make the heroes difficult to identify with, or how the half-dozen different iterations of the Beyonder we've had to this point make the Marvel Universe too stupid to spend time in...

Supergirl is a different person than her cousin. She looks at the world differently. She did not train since infancy to have the entire world depend on her as Superman felt he had to do. Her views have been more subjective and self-questioning. She doesn't have everything decided for herself in the same manner that Superman does. She grew up a normal girl in an endangered community, living on the brink of constant disaster, in the arms of her family. She came to Earth after the worst thing that could happen in her life happened, believing her parents and everyone she knew to be dead. She assumed the responsibilities of a super-heroine willingly and allowed herself to undergo a training period before setting out on her own. That time was, in comparison to Superman's, quite brief. She was out on her own, and able to do as she wished, in a relatively short period of time, knowing the weight of the world did not fall entirely upon her shoulders. 

A good Superman story does not transpose instantly to a good Supergirl story and vice versa. Supergirl tends to deal with contemporaries and earth-bound mortal problems on a more personal basis than the business-like Superman does. Mxyzptlk doesn't hound and bedevil her because she isn't the self-confident, cracksure, know-it-all her cousin is in the imp's book. She's warmer, more involved, less likely to be needed in six other places at any given moment as Superman feels he must be.

Her personal relationships are not as carved in stone as Superman's. She can be the strong one, the weak one, the lonely heart, the girl in love, she can be anyone, which in large part is probably why she's seen as a viable, promising television character by the network.

She's free, and while she has responsibilities, they are not solely her's to bear, so they need only play as large a role in the storytelling as the writer's wish. She's self-searching. She has hidden strengths and secrets, but they're only as secret as she feels they have to be. She's much more loose and yes, young. She doesn't have to have all the answers yet. "Smallville's" super-youngster was the all-important Chosen One, with a Great Destiny Ahead that He and Only HE Must Fulfill! Supergirl might have a great destiny ahead of her. She might not. It might be entirely up to her in a way Superman's never really was. 

She's a different person than her cousin and grew up in a different time with different expectations. Plus, she tends to fight girls a lot.

But hey, Marvelites, preach on about what a unique, one-of-a-kind great guy Ben Grimm is comparison to all those over-imitated DC fogeys... And remember how great the Earth-A Ben Grimm is as well. And the Counter-Earth Ben Grimm. And all of those What If, alternate timeline Ben Grimms, like the two separate ones with no super-powers at all JB himself created. And the Earth-X Ben Grimm. And the House of M Ben Grimm. And the Age of Apocalypse Ben Grimm. And the MC-2 Ben Grimm. And the Earth-X's Ben Grimm's twin sons. And She-Thing. And Ms. Thing.  What makes a really good She-Thing story that would be any different than a Thing story, I wonder...

Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 27 October 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2322
Posted: 05 January 2016 at 12:30am | IP Logged | 5  

This is one character they never should have aged.

A teenage Supergirl in high school, having to adjust to (not just a new town or school but) a brand new world, having just arrived from Argo City--THAT would be interesting!  And different from SUPERMAN!  (Maybe not that different from the original SUPERBOY, but that seems gone forever, so--)  Dealing with regular teenage girl problems AND coping with the same powers (and potential responsibilities) of a Superman would make for a LOT of stories!

Even in the 50's and 60's, DC aged her way too quickly, then we had a lot of aimless stories about a young woman who didn't know what to do with her life.

Now, teenage girl stories are all the rage in books, TV shows, and movies!  Why CBS started her off as a clumsy twenty-something--wearing glasses and working in the news business, no less!--is beyond me.
Back to Top profile | search
 
David Allen Perrin
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 15 April 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 3558
Posted: 05 January 2016 at 4:34am | IP Logged | 6  

"Marvelites"

That cracks me up.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Brian O'Neill
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 13 November 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 1964
Posted: 05 January 2016 at 3:00pm | IP Logged | 7  

I preferred Supergirl as I read her in SUPERMAN FAMILY years ago: somewhat  younger than Superman, rather than somewhat older than Superboy! As a TV soap opera actress, she appeared to be in her mid-20s. By 1983, the year DC started farting around with Superman in small ways prior to CRISIS(which was supposed to have been published in '83, if the original plans hadn't fallen through), Supergirl had been arbitrarily made a '19 year old' college student, and given that stupid 'cheerleader' costume(with fashionable mid-80s headband...just like guys wore on Krypton!)
Back to Top profile | search
 
Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
Posted: 06 January 2016 at 9:58am | IP Logged | 8  

Supergirl suffered from a weird example of "Peanuts aging." She was 15 or
so when she first appeared and by the end of her comic-book life, she was
in her mid-20s, whereas Superman -- and his entire supporting cast --
remained the same age.

Much like Dick Grayson, though, if Supergirl "grows up" then we are faced
with the reality that she's not the equal of her mentor. Robin and Supergirl's
adulthood should ideally be in a never-reached future where they
presumably replace Batman and Superman. (Sort of like the last scene in
the classic DEATH OF SUPERMAN)

The TV series had a ridiculous scene regarding the appropriateness of the
name "Supergirl," which wouldn't be an issue if the character was high
school aged and not a grown woman. It's not like DC was horribly sexist in
that regard: The adult Princess Diana was Wonder *Woman* as was the
adult Kathy Kane Batwoman.

Edited by Stephen Robinson on 06 January 2016 at 10:00am
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 8515
Posted: 06 January 2016 at 11:31am | IP Logged | 9  

Kompany-wide Kontinuity is a harsh mistress. Ideally, characters should be allowed to operate within the confines of their own features, free to change and grow, or not, to the detriment of no one but themselves. Playing the Implications Game whereby if Robin is 8 when we meet him and 19 now, we therefore MUST, without question, append eleven years to EVERY SINGLE feature DC published over a similar span of issues, gives us nutso ramifications like Sugar & Spike being teenagers (Sugar & Spike met Dolphin in Showcase 100; Dolphin knows Aquaman who is in the JLA alongside Batman who, of course, MUST be eleven years older now that he was when he took in Robin...) and Mxyzptlk having shown up EXACTLY 44 times over the same span, no more, no less. 

(Potential workaround for the Sugar & Spike problem, btw: Showcase 100 took place during a time of temporal flux. That S & S could have been taken from any period in history. They could still be infants today, sent back into the past for that issue, or they could have been infants back when they were first published, putting them in their late Fifties now... Isn't Kontinuity Kopping fun?)

Once Supergirl was given her own feature, and it happened immediately after her introduction, her aging should only have had as much effect on the rest of Superman's cast as the creators wanted it to. The premise of the strip is she's 15 and in Midvale Orphanage. Cool. She's 15. The strip moves over into it's own spot in another magazine with a new creative team who place her not just in college, but as a college graduate working there as a guidance counselor. Hell of a jump, but okay. That does not mean that Lois & Jimmy are eight years older and Bizarro #1 & Bizarro-Lois are now dealing with a hell-raising, leather-jacketed Bizarro-proto-teenager who friends and him live by their own Bizarro Code. ("What are we the Opposite of? What have you got?") "Oh, but then it's all so much less BELIEVABLE," the Lifers cry. Yeah, well, the whole thing's just a little unbelievable, so, y'know, work with it...

Questions of Supergirl's age bring up questions of Batgirl's age. Somehow, she went from zero to accomplished young professional with a degree in library sciences and enough time put in with the Gotham Library System to rise to head librarian of their main branch before we ever met her. Later, she was a congresswoman, making her at least 25, yet still somehow a contemporary of Robin's who was around 16 at the time. Of course, she could have been a 17 or 18 year old head librarian and congresswoman since Supergirl met Prez in Supergirl #10 and Prez lives in an America where the voting age is 16 and there is no age restriction on serving in government... Ah, the Implications Game... Does make you wonder if there's a huge, untold epic out there about Darkseid's battle with Prez villain Boss Smiley, who already had everything on Earth that Darkseid is after... There's Glory for ya'... Darkseid vs. Boss Smiley..! Darkness vs. Light! The Sole Ruler of Apokolips vs. the Sole Ruler of Earth! Solo Jack Kirby vs. Solo Joe Simon!... Millar? Morrison? Are you reading this...?

We could play the Implications Game forever and ever... ("Sgt. Rock is in Germany this issue and in Russia the next... And Farmboy's with him in both adventures! But Farmboy gets killed in Germany, so what? They went all the way to Russia and then came back just to kill Farmboy? What? These troop movement patterns make NO SENSE! And they have to make sense! They HAVE TO! Sgt. Rock met Superman in DCCP #10, and if I can't make his movements in WW II make PERFECT SENSE it will RUIN my enjoyment of Superman forever!! FOREVER!!!") but who is really helped by any of it? The premise of some characters change over time. Sometimes it's a mistake and they change back again. The entire publishing line shouldn't tie itself into knots trying to keep up...

Kontinuity. A harsh mistress indeed... And not in a fun, shapely, PVC-clad kind of way either...

Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Petter Myhr Ness
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 July 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 3858
Posted: 06 January 2016 at 4:34pm | IP Logged | 10  

I guess the first problem with Supergirl is that she is, like many other female characters, just a female counterpoint of an established character - with similar powers and appearance.

The second problem is that she's a Kryptonian when there's only supposed to be one left.

The third problem is the continued differences in her age, as mentioned above. The Supergirl I first encountered in the late 70ies was definitelty more woman than girl.
Back to Top profile | search
 

Sorry, you can NOT post a reply.
This topic is closed.

  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login