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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132609
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| Posted: 13 January 2015 at 5:13am | IP Logged | 1
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Batman, a version at the top of his game, is in his 40s. ••• Or not. Properly handled, there is NO time in superhero comics other than what obviously elapses during each individual story. To cite an old favorite, the first coming of Galactus obviously happens with the span of a single day. But such "days" should not be thought of as cumulative. Three hundred and sixty five issues of one day stories should not mean a year has gone by for the characters. And most certainly it should not mean thirty years have gone by! When I started at Marvel, the so-called "Seven Year Rule" was in effect. This was not a real, binding, official rule. It was merely a guideline intended to satisfy those marginal fans who kept asking how long it had been since the FF went up in their rocket. Based on visual evidence, seven years was picked, with the intention that it would ALWAYS be seven years.* But, in a more practical sense, there are only three time frames in comics: NOW, which is when most stories take place; THE PAST, which is an undefined period before the current story takes place; THE FUTURE, an equally undefined period after the story takes place. Simple! Unfortunately, even back when I was a neophyte, there were those who wanted to treat the Seven Year Rule as a sliding scale. "If it was seven years THEN, it must be eight by NOW..." And that's how we end up with Parker having been Spider-Man for ten years. And, trust me, if that's accepted, it will be twenty years in the blink of an eye. Look what happened at DC. They started shoving in chunks of "real time" and suddenly we started getting "legacy" characters because the originals were "too old." _______ * The point was missed almost immediately. I recall one fanzine writer in the late Seventies saying he had a tough time believing all the stories were taking place in 1968!
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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12545
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| Posted: 13 January 2015 at 6:43am | IP Logged | 2
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I was re-reading with my little boy Batman's 1939 origin, the first telling, and I noted it said the Waynes' murder was 15 years earlier. I had pictured Batman a few years older than 25, really closer to 30.
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Kevin Brown
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 May 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 8857
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| Posted: 13 January 2015 at 7:18am | IP Logged | 3
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JB's initial response: Nothing more needs to be said.
The rest of the "yeah, but what about...." comments: Over thinking it.
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Greg Woronchak
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 September 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 1631
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| Posted: 13 January 2015 at 7:37am | IP Logged | 4
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Simple!
Today's writers seem to go out of their way to avoid the 'simple' route at all costs!
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Marcus Hiltz
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1032
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| Posted: 13 January 2015 at 7:58am | IP Logged | 5
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Batman, a version at the top of his game, is in his 40s. ••• So wrong. And so wrong to a kid! 40+ seemed ancient to me when I was a kid reading comics!
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Aaron Smith
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 10461
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| Posted: 13 January 2015 at 8:19am | IP Logged | 6
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I hate superhero math and the complicated hoops people jump through to figure out how old characters are based on stories that have been told in the past. Superhero comics are a language of archetypes, easily understood by those willing to let the magic do its work. There's no need for numbers. The vast majority of superheroes fall into one of four age groups and that's all I need to know.
You have the kid sidekicks.
You have older teens/ very young adults, old enough to go out there and be heroes, whether alone or in teams, but still young enough to have problems with money, school, or romantic confusion without seeming pathetic (Spider-Man, The Human Torch, the original X-Men)
You have heroes old enough to have real professions and be taken seriously as adults in society but young enough to be in prime physical condition (Batman, Daredevil, Green Lantern, the Flash, Superman, Captain America, The Invisible Woman, etc.)
And you have the somewhat older, though still not old, heroes who are obviously experienced in, shall we say, more complicated professions or have, because its what the character requires, more years under their belt (Reed Richards, Doctor Strange, Nick Fury, etc.)
Does it really have to be any more complicated than that?
Oh, and regarding the thread topic, Batman wins.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132609
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| Posted: 13 January 2015 at 8:35am | IP Logged | 7
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So wrong. And so wrong to a kid! 40+ seemed ancient to me when I was a kid reading comics! •• This comes back to something I have been saying for years. Writers tend to drift into portraying the characters as essentially themselves, middle aged guys with mortgages. But to most kids, that's their parents, and they don't want to read about their parents. But, well, kids..... they're mostly gone, aren't they? Because the middle aged writers have been pandering to a middle aged audience, and there's no easy access for what used to be the entry level market.
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12186
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| Posted: 13 January 2015 at 8:38am | IP Logged | 8
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This comes back to something I have been saying for years. Writers tend
to drift into portraying the characters as essentially themselves,
middle aged guys with mortgages. But to most kids, that's their
parents, and they don't want to read about their parents.
***
Just imagine if every area of fandom had that mindset. Dennis the Menace would now be around 35 and terrorizing his colleagues.
It's a selfish attitude, I feel.
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Don Zomberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 November 2005
Posts: 2355
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| Posted: 13 January 2015 at 10:26am | IP Logged | 9
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Don't be silly, Robbie--Dennis the Menace is just a cartoon. Spider-Man is REAL.
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 13 January 2015 at 2:01pm | IP Logged | 10
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Batman, a version at the top of his game, is in his 40s
In any version of events -- Bruce Wayne would have been at least 20 before embarking on any global journey of learning and discovery --- and it would take him a good 10 years to master the numerous skills and knowledge he acquired while traveling -- so he's at least 30 before he hits the streets as a young Batman -- whom would make mistake after mistake.
To be the near flawless version of Batman who thinks multiple moves ahead of his opponent and has a time tested network on the streets of Gotham as well as the required hours of fighting/defeating enemies willing to kill him -- another 10 years is nothing. Just look at any seasoned cop or soldier -- these guys are barely in their prime after 10 years on the job.
I addition, Batman is so confident in his abilities and skills, he's willing to take on an apprentice in Robin. So allowing 10 years as solo Batman seems logical.
****
SER: With respect, I think this is an example of something I see a lot from comic book fans. There is a need to inject "reality" to fictional characters, yet there is the easy dismissal of primary sources (i.e. the comics themselves that dispute the assertions made).
For instance, the comics have consistently depicted Bruce Wayne's training as beginning prior to his being 20 years old. The story that revealed he was the "first" Robin showed a pre-teen Bruce Wayne working with detective Harvey Harris.
The comics have also been clear that Batman was never middle-aged. He's either late 20s or early 30s (the age references are usually correctly vague). I mean, you state definitively that he didn't even become Batman until he's 30 (so much for his vow to spend his life waging war on crime -- "I promise to get started on that, mom and dad, after my fun-packed 20s). But the references in the comics themselves say "not yet old enough to vote" (that would make him 20 in 1969 when that story was published) or 25 in BATMAN YEAR ONE.
And if you wish to overrule the comics themselves with logic, that's fine, but it disputes the larger logic that in reality, it's IMPOSSIBLE to ever train to become Batman. It's a fantasy (same goes for James Bond, another "second best at everything" hero). And in reality, the physically intensive type of work Batman does -- on par with football or boxing -- would have him ready for retirement by the time you have him first putting on the suit. Ali was considered "over the hill" by some when he was in his early 30s and while he fought cleverly to beat much younger men around this time, the current BATMAN comics are about a man in his prime. DARK KNIGHT is a different story.
Someone once argued that because Adam West was in his late 30s when he played Batman, this meant that Batman was always intended to be that age in the comics (yeah, weird logic, but anyway). I pointed out that at the time, "Hollywood 40" usually applied to 50something actors like Cary Grant or James Mason or Jimmy Stewart. West was probably "Hollywood 30" -- not that it ultimately mattered to what we saw in the comics.
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Andrew W. Farago
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4079
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| Posted: 13 January 2015 at 2:58pm | IP Logged | 11
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A Batman who starts out as a novice crimefighter in his early thirties is going to get frustrated and quit after a few weeks of hanging out on rooftops, freezing, and waiting for guys like the Riddler or the Penguin to come along.
Watch professional sports and you'll notice the commentators talk about every guy over 35 as if he's at death's door, and that it's a miracle that he can even walk, let alone keep up with the other young guys on the field. There's a reason that (except for the senior circuit in sports like golf) you don't see a lot of thirty-something rookies out there. And being Batman's got to be way more physically demanding than baseball.
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Darren Taylor
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004
Location: Scotland
Posts: 6003
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| Posted: 13 January 2015 at 3:15pm | IP Logged | 12
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But, in a more practical sense, there are only three time frames in comics: NOW, which is when most stories take place; THE PAST, which is an undefined period before the current story takes place; THE FUTURE, an equally undefined period after the story takes place. Simple!---JB
And that was one of the coolest things I loved about comics. I didn't know I loved it as I never knew it was a thing, as a kid. I just never questioned it. Older and wiser, I know it's one thing that I miss along with the stories being aimed at kids but enjoyed by adults.
-D
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Topic Closed)
