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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132622
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| Posted: 06 November 2014 at 2:31pm | IP Logged | 1
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Geez, that's even crazier then Jessie Ventura and Rossie O'Donnell saying that 9/11 had to be a conspiracy because that was the first time fire melt steel (I guess they think that jet fuel is the same as regular fuel).•• Not to mention that there was no melting involved. SOFTENING, which caused the girders to slip out of their braces. But not melting. But the fun thing about being a conspiracy "theorist" is that facts and science don't have to get in the way!!
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Brian J Nelson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 August 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 365
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| Posted: 06 November 2014 at 2:56pm | IP Logged | 2
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Shhhh. If you begin to point out the root of what is wrong with the conspiracy theory then that must you are in on the conspiracy!
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Eric Kleefeld
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4422
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| Posted: 06 November 2014 at 3:27pm | IP Logged | 3
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Stan Lee has always credited Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko as the co-creators with him of the respective characters. And in each case, there was a particular magic of the creative combination, which neither could completely duplicate without the other.
Unfortunately, there is a tendency among some fans to depict Lee and Kirby not as the Lennon/McCartney of comics, but as Wilson/Love.
(And by the way: For all his flaws, Mike Love did make a lot of valuable contributions to the early Beach Boys catalog.)
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Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 15881
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| Posted: 06 November 2014 at 3:54pm | IP Logged | 4
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The synposis might seem a little suspiciously convenient if Stan had suddenly found it when needed, but the two facts that it appeared years before anyone was questioning at all Stan's authorship of the FF and, more importantly, that Roger Stern inadvertently discovered it in an old desk removes any reasonable doubts to its authenticity.
If it didn't exist, though, and the first FF was created by the Marvel method (which it wasn't), Stan would still be the instigator of the FF.
The Marvel method would have gone: story idea (writer), storytelling (artist), script (writer). Did Jack Kirby actually ever claim that Stan had no pre-existing idea for the FF until sitting down with him to bash out some ideas?
I'm confident Stan dreamt up the names (barring the Torch, of course), the powers and the original concept of the dynamic between the characters. With that very first issue, though, aspects would have been refined and improved by Jack. We can lay the visual design of the FF purely at the feet of Jack (barring the Torch, of course).
As for Stan always crediting Jack and Steve as co-creators... I think Stan has been honest and open, but I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say he has always stressed they are co-creators. He's said before he is 'happy' to described Steve as a co-creator of Spider-Man, but truly believes the spark of creation came from himself. Which is why Ditko has often gone off on one about what to create actually means.
Edited by Peter Martin on 06 November 2014 at 3:56pm
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Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4565
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| Posted: 06 November 2014 at 8:08pm | IP Logged | 5
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I agree that it's preposterous to suggest that Stan typed up the synopsis years after the fact to bolster false claims about his role in the creation. But I don't think it's implausible to speculate that there may have been some sort of plot/character discussion between Lee and Kirby before the synopsis was typed, and that Stan then typed the synopsis for Kirby to use based on their discussion.
We know that Lee and Kirby co-plotted stories together before FF #1 was created. And in Origins of Marvel Comics, Stan alludes to having discussions with both Goodman and Kirby about the characters before writing the synopsis, saying "After kicking it around with Martin and Jack for awhile, I decided to call our quaint quartet the Fantastic Four. I wrote a detailed first synopsis for Jack to follow, and the rest was history."
Kirby claimed to have created the characters entirely by himself. I think it's more likely that Kirby would exaggerate his role in the creation, rather than outright lie about creating characters he merely designed.
Another issue is the points of similarity between the origin of the FF and the first Challengers story. I don't think Stan would have intentionally copied the Challengers story, and he likely wasn't even aware of it, as he reportedly never read comics put out by competitors. But I also think it's implausible that he would just happen to independently come up with a scene that's so similar to the one in that Challengers story. It seems a mighty big coincidence, especially given Kirby's involvement in both stories. To me it seems far more likely that it was Kirby who suggested the scene, recycling an idea from an earlier story he'd plotted.
There seems to be a precedent for this, as the original Lee/Kirby version of Spider-Man apparently had an origin quite similar to that of the Fly, and (according to Ditko) Lee was unaware of the similarity until he (Ditko) pointed it out, which suggests that story was co-plotted by Kirby and that Kirby recycled an old idea there, too.
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Ted Pugliese
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 December 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 7984
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| Posted: 06 November 2014 at 8:45pm | IP Logged | 6
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JB: "For instance, try this at home: read Stan and
Jack's FANTASTIC FOUR. Read Kirby's NEW GODS. Both a
full of the kind of vast cosmic spectacle, the mind
bending ideas, that we know are pure Kirby. But which
series READS better? Which is better SCRIPTED?"
A few of us are talking about this on facebook, and it's
curious how some of us agree with you, like I do, but
some of us think Kirby was a great comics writer.
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Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4565
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| Posted: 06 November 2014 at 8:53pm | IP Logged | 7
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Stephen Churay wrote:
Now, the story as I heard it was, Kirby left Marvel for DC because of two things.
1. Kirby thought that he should be given an Art Director title and any
benefits that would come with it.
2. Goodman felt Jack was making too much money, due mainly to the
amount of his output. This lead to Goodman cutting Kirby's page rate.
When these two issues came together, Kirby was upset and left. |
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According to Mark Evanier's book, Kirby left because he was dissatisfied with the new contract offered to him by Perfect Film and Chemical Corp. after they bought the company from Goodman. Kirby's contract had expired and he'd been working without one for a year or so prior to the sale. Perfect Film had given Stan a three-year contract with a raise, but the contract they offered Kirby had no raise, and in fact offered less security in terms of guaranteed work and conditions of employment than the previous contract he'd had with Goodman. When he called to try to negotiate he was told by Perfect Film's lawyers that Stan was the real genius behind the company and that anyone could draw Stan's ideas. He was told and that he could take his contract or leave it, but there would be no negotiation. So he left.
The contract situation was apparently a straw that broke the camel's back, as Goodman had also over the years made promises about Kirby sharing in merchandising profits, but had not honored those promises.
And according to Stan, Kirby was offered an art director position at some point but Kirby declined to take it. This most likely happened shortly before he moved to California (in part because his daughter Lisa had asthma and would do better in that climate). Kirby obviously would have had to cancel his move to take that position.
Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 06 November 2014 at 9:46pm
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Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
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| Posted: 06 November 2014 at 10:38pm | IP Logged | 8
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Kirby claimed to have created the characters entirely by himself. I think
it's more likely that Kirby would exaggerate his role in the creation,
rather than outright lie about creating characters he merely designed.
+++++++++
As I have occasionally pointed out, the Kirby Krusaders always seem to
conveniently gloss over Kirby's occasional claims that he created
Spider-Man, too.
The original, discarded iteration, yes. But not the version of the
character that we know and love, unless you count his pencilling of that
AMAZING FANTASY cover as an act of creation...
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Conrad Teves
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 2204
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| Posted: 07 November 2014 at 12:50am | IP Logged | 9
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Ted>>A few of us are talking about this on facebook, and it's curious how some of us agree with you, like I do, but
some of us think Kirby was a great comics writer.<<
I don't think this gets helped by the pot being stirred by famous folks.Here's Alan Moore stirring the pot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iFV1HdO2pQ Note he calls some of Kirby's dialog suggestions "a bit clunky" but still wants to credit Kirby, and not Stan as writer. He's crediting Stan with scripting the books, but doesn't count that as creating.
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Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4565
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| Posted: 07 November 2014 at 1:33am | IP Logged | 10
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Greg, do you think that the fact that Kirby claimed to have created Spider-Man means we should dismiss all of his claims about the creation of Marvel characters as unreliable?
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Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
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| Posted: 07 November 2014 at 2:17am | IP Logged | 11
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Greg, do you think that the fact that Kirby claimed to have created
Spider-Man means we should dismiss all of his claims about the
creation of Marvel characters as unreliable?
++++++++
No, but it does prove that Kirby wasn't necessarily above playing fast
and loose with history.
Not trying to slam him, or anything--it's just that the Krusaders tend to
ignore bits like that. They seem to be stuck with this image of a noble,
steadfastly honest genius who was taken advantage of by Big, Bad
Marvel--a sort of classic underdog story.
Kirby was a genius, and he deserves a tremendous amount of credit for
his incredible body of work. But, it's not as if the FF and the X-Men and
the Avengers sprang fully-formed out of his head, with Stan merely
waiting in the wings to stamp his name on them.
It was a collaborative process. Without either man, we wouldn't have
the characters as we know them. Kirby gave them physical form and
Stan gave them their voices and personalities. Both are vital
components.
Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to underestimate the importance of
scripting. Plot and art aren't the end-all, be-all of comics. Good scripting
is crucial. Writing a script is in itself a creative act, and it can be a lot
harder than it seems. Stan was scripting virtually all of Marvel's output
during the early 60s, and he is absolutely responsible for the tone of the
stories and the voices of the characters.
Isn't that just an important as plot and art? It's not as obvious, but it's
still important.
A lot of people think Ditko should get sole credit for creating Spider-
Man and making him great. But, I can pretty much guarantee that
without Stan's scripting, editing, and, most importantly,
characterization, Spider-Man would probably not have become the
sales juggernaut and fan-favorite that he did. If Ditko had been the sole
plotter, scripter, and artist for Spider-Man, then the character might
have ended up as just another cancelled, cult-favorite mouthpiece for
Ditko's philosophy, like the Question or Mr. A.
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Ted Pugliese
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 December 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 7984
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| Posted: 07 November 2014 at 5:30am | IP Logged | 12
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All you need to do to realize this is read some early
Image Comics! I was buying and reading X-Force when I
was in the Army. Back then I bought everything I could
get my hands on over seas, but when Youngblood came out
when I got back to the States, it was terrible and damn
near unreadable.
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Topic Closed)
