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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132622
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| Posted: 06 November 2014 at 11:01am | IP Logged | 1
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In all the years that Stan Lee has been telling his side of the story. How consistent has his story been? I ask this question because I don't recall anyone saying that Stan has changed his story. •• Stan told "his side" first in ORIGINS OF MARVEL COMICS. "His side" was how most of us found out that Kirby created the Silver Surfer, and he and Ditko did much of the plotting of the stories. (Stan Lee! Credit hog!) Stan's story has been consistent ever since --- and the one I tend to place ahead of others, since he wrote that book back when the events were only a few years in the past.
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 35786
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| Posted: 06 November 2014 at 11:03am | IP Logged | 2
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Wally Coppage wrote:
| With all due respect Mr. Byrne, I'm not sure if alluding to the possibility that Stan Lee would stoop to hiding a typed plot in a desk, so as to be able to pull out and exhibit as evidence if his input was ever questioned, is all that absurd. |
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Grassy knoll. Faked Moon landing. Area 51. 9/11 orchestrated by the US Government. Guess we can chalk Stan up with those nutter theories.
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Stephen Churay
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 8369
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| Posted: 06 November 2014 at 11:52am | IP Logged | 3
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I know every book used to say "Stan Lee Presents". Other than that,
I've never seen Stan get a "Created By" lone credit. To me, the "Stan
Lee Presents" was just an extension of him being the voice of Marvel.
I never saw it as a credit. Then again, I'm completely ignorant on how
having any type of such credit relates economically.
As the visual creator of these characters, I think it's a great gesture to
give Kirby and/or his estate a credit line and possible financial
compensation. But under the contract that Kirby worked under at the
time, I don't see where they were obligated to do so.
Now, the story as I heard it was, Kirby left Marvel for DC because of
two things.
1. Kirby thought that he should be given an Art Director title and any
benefits that would come with it.
2. Goodman felt Jack was making too much money, due mainly to the
amount of his output. This lead to Goodman cutting Kirby's page rate.
When these two issues came together, Kirby was upset and left.
Under the assumption that both stories are true, It would have been
nice to see Jack get an Art Director title. But, Marvel of not obligated
to do so. If Kirby's page rate was cut because Goodman felt he was
making too much money, that, IMO, is a little dirty. That said, it's was
Martin Goodman's money and company. As long as it didn't break any
laws, he was within his rights to do so, just as it was Kirby's to leave.
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Anthony J Lombardi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 9410
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| Posted: 06 November 2014 at 11:54am | IP Logged | 4
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In all the years that Stan Lee has been telling his side of the story. How consistent has his story been? I ask this question because I don't recall anyone saying that Stan has changed his story.•• Stan told "his side" first in ORIGINS OF MARVEL COMICS. "His side" was how most of us found out that Kirby created the Silver Surfer, and he and Ditko did much of the plotting of the stories. (Stan Lee! Credit hog!) Stan's story has been consistent ever since --- and the one I tend to place ahead of others, since he wrote that book back when the events were only a few years in the past. ~~~~~~~~~ That is essentially the way I learned who was who as well. Also from word of mouth from comic shop owners. I feel that since Stan recollections of the events have remained constant down through these many decades later. That is strong evidence of him telling the truth. It is far easier remembering the facts than it is a bunch of lies. Since rarely does one stick to one set of lies. Usually more lies have to be laid on top of them to cover up gaping holes in the story when telling lies.
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Shaun Barry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 December 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 6854
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| Posted: 06 November 2014 at 12:04pm | IP Logged | 5
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At this point, whenever Stan Lee shuffles off this mortal coil, I fully expect to see some Westboro Baptist-type comic fans picketing his funeral.
That's how officially nutty this debate has gotten over the years.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132622
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| Posted: 06 November 2014 at 12:25pm | IP Logged | 6
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I have not heard of Goodman actually CUTTING Kirby's page rate, tho there is a long standing story of Kirby asking for a raise, which Goodman declined saying "Draw less." This supposedly is why Kirby started doing all those full page splashes and four panel pages.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 06 November 2014 at 1:20pm | IP Logged | 7
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I find myself in a kind of "Only Nixon Could Go to China" position in all this. As Tricky Dick had shown himself so fiercely anti-Communist that his visit to Peking could not be viewed as him going "soft," so I think I have proven beyond doubt my great respect and admiration for Jack KIrby and his work.This allows me to play Devil's Advocate, and try to coax some of the extremists to realize there is, after all, a middle ground. For instance, try this at home: read Stan and Jack's FANTASTIC FOUR. Read Kirby's NEW GODS. Both a full of the kind of vast cosmic spectacle, the mind bending ideas, that we know are pure Kirby. But which series READS better? Which is better SCRIPTED? Extra points are awarded for real honesty.
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Anthony J Lombardi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 9410
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| Posted: 06 November 2014 at 1:37pm | IP Logged | 8
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The New Gods is the prime example I point to when debating this issue. There is no doubt creatively Jack Kirby was doing fantastic work. What I find lacking is the writing. I have felt if Stan wrote the words it would have been better.
When it comes down to it I don't think either Stan or Jack was lying. I think both told it from their point of view. The truth I think is somewhere in the middle.
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Robbie Moubert
Byrne Robotics Member
Evertonian
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1485
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| Posted: 06 November 2014 at 1:40pm | IP Logged | 9
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That Kirby Museum piece that Greg linked to is really annoying. The author makes a big deal about the plot only being for half the issue. It states quite clearly at the end that it covers two chapters totalling 11 pages and then mentions how the rest of the book will be apportioned. Very sloppy "journalism".
Edited by Robbie Moubert on 06 November 2014 at 4:10pm
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James Woodcock
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2007
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: 06 November 2014 at 2:06pm | IP Logged | 10
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Grassy knoll. Faked Moon landing. Area 51. 9/11 orchestrated by the US Government. Guess we can chalk Stan up with those nutter theories.
------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------I almost asked earlier if Wayne believed in hard light holograms, one of the more wacky 9/11 conspiracies.
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Rick Whiting
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Joined: 22 April 2004
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| Posted: 06 November 2014 at 2:24pm | IP Logged | 11
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I almost asked earlier if Wayne believed in hard light holograms, one of the more wacky 9/11 conspiracies.
_________________
Wait.....WHAT? Are you serious? Geez, that's even crazier then Jessie Ventura and Rossie O'Donnell saying that 9/11 had to be a conspiracy because that was the first time fire melt steel (I guess they think that jet fuel is the same as regular fuel).
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Shaun Barry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 December 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 6854
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| Posted: 06 November 2014 at 2:30pm | IP Logged | 12
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(Please don't start with the 9/11 nuts... my head can't take the idiocy...)
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Topic Closed)
