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Eric Ladd
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Posted: 07 July 2014 at 8:15am | IP Logged | 1  

In light of my own information and misinformation on the "quantify the contributions of Lee, Kirby and Ditko" I choose to think of the collaborative effort containing more value than the individuals alone. I love the Lennon and McCartney analogy best and consider the Lee/Kirby and Lee/Ditko creations close enough to 50/50 for me to give them equal credit on the matter. I'm ignorant enough to avoid attempting anything exact and smart enough to avoid riding any line of thinking other than the fence.

You may value one person's input and talent more than the other, but to think one person or the other has some overwhelming majority of the credit on their collaborative efforts beyond a 60/40 split might be pushing it.

Together these guys made great characters and stories. So great in fact that the product raised their creators to the height of fandom. I think Jesus is on the money when he points out Stan was the most accessible and easily hoisted by media, fandom and the ignorant.

Ultimately, credit where credit is due so I consider them equally when dolling out the contributing credit and try not to raise either member of the team higher than the other.
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Jesus Garcia
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Posted: 07 July 2014 at 9:02am | IP Logged | 2  

I too like the Lennon and McCartney analogy: it fits the back-and-forth process of producing comics Marvel-style.

Still the issue of assigning due credit in the Lee, Kirby, & Ditko collaboration is more complex than in the case of the Beatles since it is not just historal footnotes as to who created what which is often being raised: there is also the issue of financial compensation. Steve and Jack got pay-for-hire but created as though they were partners.

I wouldn't want to take any credit from Stan, but it would be nice if it was ackowledged that Steve and Jack (expecially Jack) were golden gooses which they were. Kirby's imagination was not fueled through his collaboration with Stan. Kirby's work on Green Arrow and Challengers of the Unknown produced just before landing at Marvel are evidence of the cosmos that was trying to break through editorial interference.

In the end, perhaps Stan's greatest feat asemployee at Marvel was NOT interfering with the creative process and for channeling his Kirby and Ditko powerhouses. Allowing Ditko to work on his own, on a succesful strip like Spider-Man, while sales were good speaks volumes about Stan's judgement as editor.

And, to Stan's credit, I have never read that he showed anything but admiration (and even affection) for Jack and Steve's work. 
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Benjamin Ledbetter
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Posted: 07 July 2014 at 9:11am | IP Logged | 3  

I think what people often forget about Stan Lee and his legacy is that he was the face of Marvel until the Quesada era began. When Marvel comics were distributed everywhere, and sold in high numbers, he "presented" each story. He was the company man, and he was the celebrity of the company, and so he got most of the publicity.

Those Marvel classics would not have been successful without him. He hired talent, he gave the characters their voice. Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko deserve the share of credit they often do not get, but they don't deserve to make it seem like Stan did nothing, or next to it. Also, if Stan wanted total credit, why did he credit the folks working on the books? That wasn't so common back then.

Jack and Steve did create some amazing characters without Stan, but other than Captain America, none of them are as popular or as influential as what they did with Stan and Marvel. Kirby's DC run did not ignite sales, and was cancelled. Later those characters became iconic, but not so much during that time. Kind of like She-Hulk. One of Stan's last books, a character made great by Roger Stern and John.
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Robert White
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Posted: 07 July 2014 at 10:11am | IP Logged | 4  

Even though I've stated many times that I feel Kirby and Ditko were the main creative forces on FF, Spider-Man, Doctor Strange, etc, I also believe that Stan was more than just a master salesman; his gift for dialog and his ability as an editor were vital to the success of 60's Marvel.
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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 07 July 2014 at 12:34pm | IP Logged | 5  

I would say reread the article. I found very little to be fair or balanced. I find it marginalized Stan Lee's contributions to the actual work and praised his salesmanship. There are at least two instances where the writer says Jack Kirby did the vast majority of the work. The writer seems to feel the balance was, Stan being the huckster and Jack's genius story telling, and those, in his estimation, are the equal parts that led to Marvel being a success.
~~~~~~~~~~~

From the article;
Let’s start with this: I say that he’s underrated because it is almost impossible to overstate his contributions to the medium. There’s a huge segment of die-hard fans and creators that fall all over themselves to minimize his contributions in favor of glorifying Kirby, and it’s easy to see why: It’s literally impossible to overstate Kirby’s contributions, and he’s the one who never got the attention that Lee’s been reveling in for the past fifty years.

``````

Michael Penn in response to what you wrote

 'but still, it’s not quite as one-sided for either man as some folks would have you believe.'

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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 07 July 2014 at 12:52pm | IP Logged | 6  

The writer called Stan a huckster. Which in my opinion is truthful. But he doesn't say that was the only thing he did. 

I think that history has proven that the vastness of the greatness achieved by Ditko, Kirby and Stan Lee are when they worked together. 

Stan Lee's work with John Romita IMO was better  than anything he did with Ditko on Spider-Man. But that's just my opinion. 

There will never be a question about Jack Kirby's art. But the writing is something else. 

Stan Lee never created anything greater later on in his career as during that period in the 60's.  Neither did Kirby or Ditko either. 

But if you think about it that shouldn't be a slight against any of them. How many people in their entire comic career created even one great creation?

Stan Lee , Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko where in the right place at the right time. 

It's my opinion that the seeds of those great creations initially began in Stan Lee's head. But it was Kirby and Ditko who took those seeds and created something from them. Stan than took them and presented them in a manner that made people what more. In the process of presenting the product he also presented the people who made them.




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David Miller
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Posted: 07 July 2014 at 1:38pm | IP Logged | 7  

I think Robert summed it up:

 Robert White wrote:
Even though I've stated many times that I feel Kirby and Ditko were the main creative forces on FF, Spider-Man, Doctor Strange, etc, I also believe that Stan was more than just a master salesman; his gift for dialog and his ability as an editor were vital to the success of 60's Marvel.


It doesn't seem like much, reduced to a single sentence, but those are not inconsiderable accomplishments. If all Stan did was the above, and was filling in blanks left by his artists, it's still an amazing achievement. Eight books a month just at the beginning, even more rotating features, establishing voices for dozens of lasting characters, as well as managing the bullpen. The only editor I can think of who approached Stan's prolificacy was Al Feldstein at EC, who's dialogue and captions were not quite up to Stan's.

We're never going to know who exactly came up with the germ of every single Marvel character. But Stan has noted in the past that it was Marvel's writing -- his writing, even if it was just dialogue and captions -- that caused a revolution in comics, and he's not wrong.

I disagree with Anthony that Kirby and Ditko didn't create anything greater than their work with Stan Lee. NEW GODS is arguably the best work of Kirby's career, and I certainly think his art with Mike Royer is up there with the Sinnott FF issues. Kirby's writing gets short-changed. It might not have been as accessible to early Seventies fanboy tastes, but its poetry is evident with the passing of time.

Ditko's post Marvel work, especially his self-authored tracts, are a harder read and an even harder defense. That guy really benefited from a popularizer. But his cartooning has always been impeccable, and stuff like he did for Warren really showed off his skills with b&w. 

Did Stan hog credit? Looking at the credits for one of Kirby's last stories in his Marvel Age run, in Amazing Adventures #4, I can't blame him for thinking so:




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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 07 July 2014 at 1:46pm | IP Logged | 8  

Steve, your tirade against Lee seems to reflect a perceived injustice. You seem to think Lee's getting too much credit. But instead of acknowledging what would be the proper amount of credit you try to take it all away. That makes no sense. For example:

++

STEVE: What has Stan Lee Really done after the height of the Silver Age? He did some stuff here and ther but nothing like when he was with Jack and /or Steve. Oh, he gave us Ravage in the 1990's? Ravage! Jack gave us some wonderful characters when he went to DC. Jack gave one of DC's greatest villains. Those characters are still big players in the DC universe. Jack's ideas and concepts are still be done today with other comic book companies. And he did all without Stan Lee.

***

Stuff here and there? Steve Ditko quit Spider-Man with number 38. Stan wrote everything that came after up to 100. Are those not special comics to you? After Jack and Ditko left them, Stan still wrote Iron Man, Captain America, the Avengers, the Hulk, and more month after month-- while also carrying his other duties.

He wrote an amazing number of amazing comics up until he stopped writing. Then, I grant you, his output dwindled. That was about the time the Silver Age ended.

+++

STEVE: I have never read or heard of Stan Lee sincerely telling people what Jack and Steve have done. I do not think he is about that. I really believe he is about Stan Lee. He has to know what the current mindset is and this debate going on. His "faulty" memory excuse is getting old. I think he picks and choses what he wants remember.

**

Ridiculous. A simple google search will lead you to dozens of quotes and interviews where Lee gives as much credit as he can to Ditko and Kirby. He doesn't have a great memory, but you'd have to know him better than you do to be able to say that he "picks and chooses what he wants to remember."

You are pissed off that your framer can't remember that Stan Lee is not an artist? And you blame Stan Lee for that?

Did the Baltimore Comic Con poster say Lee CREATED all those characters? You are aware that Stan Lee has written some great Captain America stories, I assume. Would you be pissed if Captain America appeared on a poster commemorating JB?


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Michael Sommerville
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Posted: 07 July 2014 at 2:27pm | IP Logged | 9  

Anthony,

The quote you put up I believe stresses my point about the article and what the writer is saying. There is, in my opinion, a difference between the work and the medium. The writer minimizes Stan's contributions to the stories and stresses his effectiveness as a marketer. 

In the creation and success of these early Marvel characters and stories there seems to be one constant. There is a group of individuals that feels knocking down Stan Lee is the best way to elevate Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko. 

Could Marvel have had success minus Kirby on the work of Lee/Ditko. Could it have been successful without Ditko on the work of Lee/Kirby. It is doubtful but possible. Without Stan Lee I think it is even less likely. The way I see it Stan was the pitch man, Kirby and Ditko fleshed it out, then Lee wrote the copy.

For me it is less Lennon/McCartney and more Elton John/Bernie Taupin. One produces words the other feeling, strong individually unstoppable when put together. 

 




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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 07 July 2014 at 2:36pm | IP Logged | 10  

I disagree with Anthony that Kirby and Ditko didn't create anything greater than their work with Stan Lee. NEW GODS
~~~~~~~
David Miller, I don't deny that the New Gods were great creations by Jack Kirby. But they don't come anywhere near the X-Men, Fantastic Four or the various Avengers characters that he created with Stan Lee. 

The simple proof being that the New Gods hasn't had the same level of success that the previous have had. The New Gods characters haven't had and consistent titles lasting on the shelves. Not like the Marvel work. There  aren't any New Gods movies etc etc.

Now don't think I'm trying to be dismissive of the later work. That isn't my intention. They just weren't as successful.

As far as Jack Kirby's writing goes. It isn't his strong attribute. If I would have to list them in order I'd have to say Storyteller, Artist, Writer. In that order. 

Now to be fair. I'm going to say that Stan Lee was responsible for all the great stories or great dialogue. 

His later work is proof that Stan can put out some duds as well.  
I just recently finished reading the two volume set of Stan and John Romita's Spider-Man news strips.  While is was fantastic getting to read the REAL Spider-Man again. There were strips that I thought Stan Lee wasn't at his best. Some of the Dialogue  repeated itself or didn't quite fit with what John Romita drew. 
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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 07 July 2014 at 2:48pm | IP Logged | 11  

Anthony,

The quote you put up I believe stresses my point about the article and what the writer is saying. There is, in my opinion, a difference between the work and the medium. The writer minimizes Stan's contributions to the stories and stresses his effectiveness as a marketer. 

In the creation and success of these early Marvel characters and stories there seems to be one constant. There is a group of individuals that feels knocking down Stan Lee is the best way to elevate Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko. 

Could Marvel have had success minus Kirby on the work of Lee/Ditko. Could it have been successful without Ditko on the work of Lee/Kirby. It is doubtful but possible. Without Stan Lee I think it is even less likely. The way I see it Stan was the pitch man, Kirby and Ditko fleshed it out, then Lee wrote the copy.
~~~~~~~~~~

Michael I guess it just boils down to this. I don't see it exactly the same way you did. I don't feel it marginalized Stan's role. Nor do I think the writer was trying to knock down Stan Lee. I guess It's all how we look at it. 

``

My feelings are that Marvel never would have become what it was if all the parts weren't there at that point in time. 

Marvel needed Stan Lee, Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko.  Without Stan Lee Kirby didn't create the Fantastic Four, Avengers and X-Men, Ditko didn't create Spidey or Dr. Strange.  Without Kirby or Ditko, Stan Lee most likely wouldn't have created Spider-Man,The FF, Avengers, X-Men, Dr. Strange. He most likely would have left comics.

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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 07 July 2014 at 2:56pm | IP Logged | 12  

After two seconds of googling:

Stan Lee quote: “There was never a time when it just said ‘by Stan Lee.’ It was always ‘by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko’ or ‘by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby.’ I made sure their names were always as big as mine. As far as what they were paid, I had nothing to do with that. They were hired as freelance artists, and they worked as freelance artists. At some point they apparently felt they should be getting more money. Fine, it was up to them to talk to the publisher. It had nothing to do with me. I would have liked to have gotten more money too. And twice, not once, I offered a job to Jack Kirby. I said to him, ‘Jack, why don’t you work for Marvel with me?’ I was the art director at the time. I said, ‘You be the art director. I’ll just be the editor and head writer, and you’ll have that security.’ He wouldn’t do it. He didn’t want a staff job. With him, as with Ditko, I don’t see where they were unfairly treated. Jack was a great guy and so is Steve. I’m sorry anybody feels there’s any acrimony. I loved them both.”

from: Lee Bemused By Kirby Controversy, Not As Wealthy As Reported | http://comicsalliance.com/stan-lee-interview-playboy-jack-ki rby-steve-ditko-marvel-artwork-disney-movies-controvery-weal th/?trackback=tsmclip

On the other hand, talk about trying to take someone else's credit:

JACK KIRBY QUOTE: "Stan Lee and I never collaborated on anything! I’ve never seen Stan Lee write anything. I used to write the stories just like I always did.

GARY GROTH: On all the monster stories it says “Stan Lee and Jack Kirby.” What did he do to warrant his name being on them?

KIRBY: Nothing! OK?

GROTH: Did he dialogue them?

KIRBY: No, I dialogued them. If Stan Lee ever got a thing dialogued, he would get it from someone working in the office. I would write out the whole story on the back of every page. I would write the dialogue on the back or a description of what was going on. Then Stan Lee would hand them to some guy and he would write in the dialogue."

From: http://www.tcj.com/jack-kirby-interview/6/
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