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Topic: OT: Time travel in the Marvel Universe (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Robert White
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Posted: 18 June 2014 at 7:36pm | IP Logged | 1  

According to Brevoort (this in response to a question on his formspring) he feels that Gruenwald's rules for time-travel were dumb because they take all the danger and excitment out of time travel stories. Gruenwald's rule was that every time you traveled backwards or forwards in time, you created an alternate timeline and can't actually affect your REAL past or future. 

I do see Brevoort's point, on one hand, but I also see the wisdom of Gruenwald's rules given that everyone and their mother-in-law can time travel by way of magic/technology/mutant powers, etc, in the Marvel universe. What's everyone's opinion on the subject?
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Robert Bradley
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Posted: 18 June 2014 at 7:51pm | IP Logged | 2  

I think divergent timelines are the way to go - it avoids the awkward paradoxes that crop up if you go with one timeline.

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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 18 June 2014 at 8:07pm | IP Logged | 3  

There should be an element of danger. Alternate timelines are fine, but the idea that EVERY instance of time travel will result in an alternate timeline is boring. Even if an alternate timeline is created, the characters should be in the position of not knowing whether their actions will result in an alternate timeline or their timeline being screwed up and approach time travel as if their actions matter. 
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Andrew Bitner
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Posted: 18 June 2014 at 8:35pm | IP Logged | 4  

If you remove the possibility that some stupid mistake or deliberate plot committed in the past can destroy the present due to time travel, you're robbing the premise of its inherent thrills. Who cares if a separate timeline is created? What's the risk to our heroes in that?

"Ooh, golly gee, I killed Adolf Hitler and spun off a timeline where everything sucks. Guess I'll go back to my safe and happy 2014 and not give a damn about the losers in that parallel timeline where the Soviet Union took over and we're under the Soviet Super-Soldiers' iron heel."

It might be better to suggest that these random time travels tend to cancel each other out, leaving the present largely as we know it--but not necessarily *exactly* as we know it.

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Andrew Bitner
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Posted: 18 June 2014 at 8:35pm | IP Logged | 5  

Or you can go the DC route and create a group like the Linear Men who clean up time travel mishaps.
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Bill Guerra
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Posted: 18 June 2014 at 8:46pm | IP Logged | 6  

I can see the pros and cons of Gruenwald's rules. I wouldn't call them "dumb", because I can see how he was thinking of preserving the history of the Marvel Universe. However, it would also still allow for characters like Kang to run around.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 18 June 2014 at 8:51pm | IP Logged | 7  

Gruenwald's Omniversal theory was a fantastic set-up for a certain type of story, specifically the What If? If the divergence has already taken place, it's kind of fun to go to that world and explore the ramifications of it.

If, however, all you're ever going to do is create a new timeline, and nothing you do puts the present one in any sort of jeopardy, then I see the problem. JB's MTIO #50 used this conundrum to the story's benefit (Ben's plan didn't work. It couldn't work.) but once that shot's fired, there isn't much else you can do except the ol' "We're trapped in an alternate timeline with no way home!" concept. Your time travelers are in danger, but very little else is. History itself can not be jeopardized under this theory.

Not only that, but every new timeline you create has its own Cosmic Cube, its own Serpent Crown. There isn't one Infinity Gauntlet to be wary of. There are as many of them as there are cracks in the time-space continuum. Say, someone dies heroically to destroy the Soul Gem and keep the Gauntlet from ever becoming fully empowered. No problem. We'll just go to the parallel timeline next door and get that Soul Gem. Hell, I'll go back ten minutes, stop the hero, and take that one, too. Now I have two Soul Gems. What are you going to do about it?

Well, if you're cagey enough, you already have 500 Soul Gems from neighboring realities and 75 Gauntlets to put them in. That collection is still building. Your girlfriend dead in this timeline? With divergent realities, that's really not a problem. Go back and save her. Sure, she's still technically dead here, but in the world where you are now, she's hale and hearty. Sure, there are also two of you, but if you're a bad guy, that's not much of a problem, especially if you can relocate the other you to this universe, or y'know, just kill the guy. If you're Peter Parker and you've gone back to save Gwen, well, you can't just kill the other you. You could live the rest of your life as temporal clone Ben Reilly, I guess.

The point is, any such story becomes more about the rules rather than the characters or the decisions they make.

If you try to make Gruenwald's Omniverse go away, however, you're going to lose the internal consistency of 300 or so stories to date, not to mention that any scheme you devise A.) Will not be anywhere near as well reasoned or tested and B.) since we will have proven that whatever the rules of time travel are, we can change them, your new set of rules will be in place for about as long as it takes for someone to type up an even newer one...

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John Byrne
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Posted: 18 June 2014 at 9:14pm | IP Logged | 8  

The only rule that should ever be imposed on time travel stories is internal consistency. Working in a "shared universe" should be enough to keep professional writers from doing anything stupid.

Which means we're f**ked.

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Robert White
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Posted: 18 June 2014 at 10:35pm | IP Logged | 9  

The problem I see with ignoring Gruenwald's system is that it doesn't make that much sense in terms of the Marvel universe. In most time travel stories, you don't have to be bothered with cosmic authority figures or beings who's purpose is to safeguard time. Why would the Powers That Be allow a mortal to travel back in time, upset a few fundamental particles shortly after the Big Bang, and effectively change the way the universe evolves?
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 18 June 2014 at 11:38pm | IP Logged | 10  

The problem I see with ignoring Gruenwald's system is that it doesn't make that much sense in terms of the Marvel universe. In most time travel stories, you don't have to be bothered with cosmic authority figures or beings who's purpose is to safeguard time. Why would the Powers That Be allow a mortal to travel back in time, upset a few fundamental particles shortly after the Big Bang, and effectively change the way the universe evolves?

-----

I don't understand. The Marvel Universe does have entities who safeguard time.
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 19 June 2014 at 12:58am | IP Logged | 11  

Is this stealth 'laying of seeds' I wonder.

If 'Time runs out' next year, are we looking at this new view as being laying the groundwork for a range wide reboot? And will that reboot be more like Ultimate universe (please no), movie universe or something else?
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Robert White
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Posted: 19 June 2014 at 1:08am | IP Logged | 12  

That's my point Michael; Marvel has cosmic entities that are in charge of this stuff. In stories outside the Marvel universe, its not a concern, but modern writers are bringing that sensibility into the context of the Marvel universe. There was a clear REASON why Gruenwald made that rule and I was never bothered by it. Takes the suspense out you say? (Brevoort) Kind of like the edge of your seat suspense I feel with every new "Death of..." gimmick event? Come on. < id="hc_extension_off">< id="hc_extension_highcontrast">< id="hc_extension_highcontrast_back">< id="hc_extension_grayscale">< id="hc_extension_grayscale_back">< id="hc_extension_invert">< id="hc_extension_invert_back">< id="hc_extension_invert_grayscale">< id="hc_extension_yellow_on_black">< id="hc_extension_yellow_on_black_back">
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