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Darren Ashmore
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Posted: 16 June 2014 at 3:13pm | IP Logged | 1  

The recent Jack Kirby thread got me to thinking about JK's work at DC.

Taking just the titles that Kirby himself worked on and not any later versions, would it be a fair statement to make that the Fourth World stories took place on (pre-Crisis) Earth 2?  

My main reasoning here is that Kirby included (a clone of) The Guardian and the (adult) Newsboy Legion in JIMMY OLSEN, and although Jimmy and Superman also appeared they could have quite easily been the E2 versions.  To my knowledge there were no other DC characters referenced during Kirby's time on the titles.  The New Gods et al were only included as E1 characters during the revival of the 70's/80's.

Now, because Kirby was also editor of his titles (except JO which would have been edited by Mort Weisinger?) he might not have even been aware (or concerned with) the E2 concept, and just wanted to reuse The Guardian and The Newsboy Legion, characters he had created with Joe Simon 30 years years earlier.  Certainly outside of the Schwartz office at that time, noboby else at DC seemed bothered about keeping the parallel worlds straight (which in part brought about the need for COIE, but don't get me started on that!)

Anyhow, thoughts all?

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Robert Cosgrove
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Posted: 16 June 2014 at 3:23pm | IP Logged | 2  

There may have been some cross-over in the 40's with other DC heroes and the Guardian and the Newsboy Legion, but I can't recall hearing of one; I believe they were off in their own little S&K world (unlike Sandman, an episode or so of which S&K actually drew for an All-Star Comics adventure.  Absent something placing him with the Justice Society characters, I would think he could have been in earth 2, or in earth 1.  

But this is after the fact rationalization.  I doubt that Kirby knew about the earth 1/ earth 2 split, or cared about it.  (But perhaps I'm wrong there--Kirby was an sf fan and the concept would have been familiar to him).
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Darren Ashmore
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Posted: 16 June 2014 at 4:06pm | IP Logged | 3  

Maybe it's just me, but after The Seven Soldiers of Victoy showed up in JLA and were established as E2 heroes the implication was that any  Golden Age heroes were on Earth 2 and the modern heroes on E1.  Of course Superman was always played by DC as being the first superhero on E2 AND E1.

I can't say for certain but I suspect there was a good deal of apathy and/or politikking from some DC editors toward the E2 concept during this period, even extending into the time Roy Thomas came to the compnay

I'm probably reading too much into it.  The entire Fourth World series could have just as easily been on its own parallel Earth (Earth K anyone?).

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Michael Casselman
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Posted: 16 June 2014 at 4:21pm | IP Logged | 4  

I always assumed those stories were on Earth 1. This was also the era where there were E1 variants on Spectre and Wildcat floating around, mostly in the pages of Brave and the Bold. Not that abiding by Bob Haney's slippery hold on continuity is anything to boast about.

I don't think it had ever been firmly established what earth Guardian originally existed on (regardless of when he was originally published) at that time, so Kirby may have simply assumed that his Newsboys and Guardian were as much of E1 as any other contemporary character. Most of the E1/E2 establishment of 'Earth of origin' really didn't begin to take hold until the All Star Squadron days.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 16 June 2014 at 5:33pm | IP Logged | 5  

The Kirby New Gods series take place on Earth-1 in the then-current continuity. The contextual evidence is inarguable. Story threads involving Morgan Edge, Galaxy Communications, Intergang, the 100, and others were carried over into the rest of the Superman line, and appeared throughout the Seventies.

There is also the ages of the characters to consider. Superman and Jimmy in the New Gods era stories are clearly the current versions and not the 40 or 50 some-odd year old characters the Earth-2 versions were shown to be at that time. If you want to pretend that the New Gods stories then must have taken place back in the late 40's and early 50's when the Earth-2 Superman and Jimmy were the ages shown, then you have to account for all of the 70's era references somehow meaning something other than what they are clearly intended to mean. Hippies and peaceniks like the Forever People must be reimagined as something else entirely, and not what Kirby intended.

We also saw what was taking place on Earth-2 at this same time in All-Star Comics, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the New Gods. You could, I suppose, play the Bob Haney Super-Sons card and claim that all of this was happening in stories DC just never told you about or mentioned in any of their other titles, but that's hardly kosher.

The crux of your question seems to hinge upon there somehow being an Earth-1 Guardian and Newsboy Legion that pre-dated the public debut of Superman, supposedly Earth-1's very first super-hero. I agree that it's a gray area, but time and time again, DC gave us stories featuring Earth-1 super-beings that pre-date Superman. Casting Guardian and the Newsboys in that same light doesn't cause nearly the train wreck to continuity that your supposition does. 

TNT and Dan, the Dyna-Mite were shown to live on Earth-1 and pre-date Superman, as was the Golden Age Air Wave. There is an issue of the JLA that established a number of 1950's era heroes forming a League prior to the one we all know, including Congorilla, the original Robotman, and the Blackhawks, all shown to exist on Earth-1 and having had careers that precede Superman's.

There are costumed heroes from various points in Earth-1's history such as Nurse Betty Lynn, Miss Liberty, from Tomahawk, set during the Revolutionary War. There's the Black Pirate, a heroic privateer, from the 1500's.

In Superman's own title, we saw Microwave Man, a super-criminal from the 1940's. As much as I enjoy the thematic correctness of Superman being the first, there were any number of DC super-folk on Earth-1 who could dispute such a claim if they had a mind to. It doesn't much of a stretch to add the Guardian and Newsboys to that list, especially when post Kirby-DC did so much in the Titans and Superman Family to further tie those characters to Earth-1.

The All-Star Squadron title chucked a great portion of this into the dustbin in a rather cavalier fashion, giving us Earth-2 Air Waves and Aquamen, beings we'd previously been told categorically did not exist. I get that Roy Thomas and a sense of general neatness would have us consign everything "Golden Age" to Earth-2, but it simply wasn't so, even at the time Kirby was doing the New Gods. Even if, in fact, his Earth-1 Guardian was the first crack in that wall, well, so be it. That's one more first we can tally up for Kirby. :-)

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Eric Smearman
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Posted: 16 June 2014 at 8:09pm | IP Logged | 6  

There was an issue of DC COMICS PRESENTS that established the
existence of an Earth-One Air Wave who was operating when Clark
was Superboy. I assumed that the Guardian and the original Newsboys
may have been around on Earth-One at that same time.
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Robert Cosgrove
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Posted: 16 June 2014 at 8:47pm | IP Logged | 7  

These Earth one-Earth two discussions always make me feel a bit like I'm a character in Earth Big Bang Theory . . . 
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 16 June 2014 at 8:48pm | IP Logged | 8  

Can you introduce me then to Bernadette? I really don't think Wolowitz is good enough for her...

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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 16 June 2014 at 9:16pm | IP Logged | 9  

Sorry, Darren. It was an intriguing theory, but all those JIMMY OLSEN issues and character appearances messed it up. It's much easier to put the Guardian and Newsboy Legion on Earth 1 than it is to put Morgan Edge, et al on Earth 2.

Hey, I've only read some of the JIMMY OLSEN issues--did Kirby create Morgan Edge or was he already appearing in the main SUPERMAN books?

Another question (since somebody brought them up): Anybody ever have a good explanation for those Bob Haney SPECTRE and WILDCAT appearances? Were the Fleisher/Aparo SPECTRE stories in ADVENTURE COMICS actually an Earth 1 Spectre?
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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 16 June 2014 at 9:37pm | IP Logged | 10  

One thing to remember is that at the time Kirby was doing his titles, Earth-2 had not yet become part of Official DC Continuity across the entire line.  It was pretty much only used in Julie Schwartz-edited titles.  Aside from one random issue of The Brave and The Bold (issue #91) I can't think of any mentions of Earth-2 in a non-Schwartz-edited book prior to 1975.  And although Boltinoff used the Earth-2 concept in that one issue, he also contradicted it frequently with appearances by characters like Wildcat and the Spectre in The Brave and The Bold, with no explanation given.  And no other editors used the multiverse concept at all. 

Given this, Kirby likely was not even aware of the multiverse concept and certainly wouldn't have been asked to adhere to it.  Besides that, he was well-known for not being interested in across-the-line continuity, and not wanting to coordinate his titles with what was occurring in other books (another notable example being his use of a Hulk robot in Eternals rather than the Hulk, simply because he didn't want to coordinate his storyline with ongoing Hulk continuity). 

It wasn't until Jeanette Kahn took over and fan-turned-pro Paul Levitz ascended to editorial power that Schwartz's multiverse concept became the official continuity across all DC's titles.


Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 16 June 2014 at 9:39pm
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Darren Ashmore
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Posted: 17 June 2014 at 1:34am | IP Logged | 11  

Thanks guys, for your great and considered responses.  Seems the general consensus is that the stories were based on Earth 1.  I guess the real answer is that DC didn't really worry too much about the overall continuity of the line, concentrating on good entertaining stories  delivered every month, rather than how they all fit together (perhaps a better strategy than a strict adherence, for DC at least).  Even Schwartz's titles introduced Zatanna, the daughter of a Golden Age character (although I believe, without checking, that she appeared prior to 'Flash of Two Worlds')

Of course, at the time, the turnover of readership was much greater and the notion of anyone reading comicbooks beyond the age of 13/14 was unthought of so that stuff didn't matter. In the final analysis it's a moot point now.

 

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Jesus Garcia
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Posted: 17 June 2014 at 3:03pm | IP Logged | 12  

The thing that always grabs me about Kirby's work is how so much of it is perfectly standalone.

It's clear to me that many fans get a kick out of speculating on what would happen if character "A" would meet character "B". In fact, Fan-turned-pro Erik Larsen has often suggested (jokingly) in the pages of The Savage Dragon that it's all happening on the same Earth with recognizable arms and legs or distance shots of Spider-Man, The Thing, and Kamandi.

But when it comes to Kirby's Kreations like Inhumans, New Gods and Eternals, I would vastly prefer that these concepts exist in separate universes.

I like "first contact" tales and a human population that has experienced god-like superbeings since the 1940's would take the New Gods in stride rather than with awe and fear.

In other words, having all these creations exist on the same Earth defuses their respective impact and dilutes the scope of their activities.

I feel the same way about Mutants. I feel the success of the X-Men film franchise, in fact, rests on the premise that mutants are the only humans with superpowers on THAT Earth.

The same can be said about The Donner Superman.

So, while it's cool to see a modern Guardian featured in the New God universe, in the end an entirely different vision might have served better: like Jack's re-imagining of the Manhunter concept which -- again -- was broad enough in scope to be granted intsown earth.
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