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Topic: Archeology in Comics (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 28 July 2013 at 6:32am | IP Logged | 1  

Julie Schwartz used to refer to the writers who turned constantly to the Past for their inspiration as "archeologists". And he wasn't being flattering.

Over the past several years I have started to think American superhero comics have gone too far in this direction. So much "deconstruction" and burrowing into past storylines. One writer I know, who used to be among the best, now seems almost paralyzed if he cannot do stories that "fix" things. Often things in no need of fixing!

Probably about ten years ago, I started playing in my mind a little game of What If? about this. If I was EiC at Marvel or DC (to reiterate, a job I DO NOT want!) how would I address this? I decided I would probably hand down a Rule that stated no story could refer to any issue/story published more than a year ago (occasional flashbacks to origins being the obvious exception). And after a couple of years of that, I might even tighten the Rule and make it six months.

There is, after all, no need for the latest appearance of the Joker or Doctor Doom to refer to previous appearances beyond the simple acknowledgment that there have BEEN previous appearances. The constant listing of previous encounters plays altogether too much to the anal fanboy mentality -- it's ALL REAL and it must ALL be constantly in play. This leads to the paralyzing inability to get past the idea that Batman has fought the Joker "hundreds" of times. Which requires a lot of time to have passed. And leads to questions like "Why doesn't Batman kill the Joker?" Both very destructive concepts!

In 100+ issues of FANTASTIC FOUR, Stan Lee and Jack Kirby hardly ever referred to previous stories beyond the simplest "not the first time we've met this guy" approach. And, of course, they were always very vague about elapsed time. "Months ago" was a recurrent phrase.

How much better would the recent (and not so recent, really) history of American Superhero Comics have been if stories were not permitted to be constantly resurrected. Imagine if, in X-MEN, for instance, after one year Chris was no longer permitted to make any reference to Dark Phoenix!

How "necessary" would CRISIS have been, if Earth 2 had not become a fixture, and that parallel was not mentioned again a year after "The Flash of Two Worlds"?

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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 28 July 2013 at 6:42am | IP Logged | 2  

I agree with all you say, Mr. Byrne.

For me, it's hard to add to that, other than to say this: there are so many stories left to tell, why is there the need for "archaeology"? For example, I can't recall the Fantastic Four ever meeting Juggernaut. May have happened without my knowledge, but I don't recall it. How about a story like that instead of revisiting the past?

Have the X-Men taken on Doctor Octopus? What about Hulk battling The Sinister Six? Or Batman and his Batboat taking on Ocean Master? Potentially, they are never-before-seen battles, much more appealing than revisiting Crisis events or "archaeology".

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Christian Mock
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Posted: 28 July 2013 at 6:45am | IP Logged | 3  

Posts like this make me wish THIS site had a "LIKE" button! :)
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 28 July 2013 at 6:55am | IP Logged | 4  

Problem is, as fans we want all (or at least most) of the stories we've ever read to "count". To make matters worse, some of us have read A LOT of stories. 
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Bill Mimbu
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Posted: 28 July 2013 at 8:17am | IP Logged | 5  

I do believe anime and manga have contributed to this need for continuity in (American) super-hero comic books these days...  A good majority of anime and manga series have a finite length to them (a beginning, middle, and end) with character growth, change, and reference to past history being a big part of the attraction for this format. 

With Marvel & DC super-hero comics, trying to do the same thing brings up several problems, in that there is usually not one single creator / team who will be with a title from start to finish (a good majority of the Big-Two comics were intended to be open-ended anyway), and any major character growth / changes that have occurred can be nullified or rewritten by the next creative team assigned to the book (much to the chagrin of the fans of the previous creative team). 

If JB's Doom Patrol book ended up being set in an "alternate reality" of the DC universe, why was it even necessary for the next DP book to go out of its way to show Nudge and Grunt in the first issue (being machine-gunned and literally abandoned as a means of introduction to new readers), when they could have easily been ignored?  For that matter, the Doom Patrol's sacrifice in the original series has been carried over into nearly every follow-on DP series as a major life-changing past historical event for the team, which only ended up making the last incarnation of the team even more depressed and angst-ridden about it with each issue.



Edited by Bill Mimbu on 28 July 2013 at 8:24am
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Wallace Sellars
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Posted: 28 July 2013 at 9:05am | IP Logged | 6  

JB's idea works for me. It would force creators to be more... creative!
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Carmen Bernardo
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Posted: 28 July 2013 at 11:41am | IP Logged | 7  

I could agree with that.  Just use statements like "We've been having trouble with this guy for as long as we've been doing this!", and let the fans just enjoy the story.  No need for someone to become a historian and try tracking down every back issue referred to.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 28 July 2013 at 11:55am | IP Logged | 8  

No need for someone to become a historian and try tracking down every back issue referred to.

••

And pursuant to that, NO FOOTNOTES!!!

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Bill Guerra
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Posted: 28 July 2013 at 12:07pm | IP Logged | 9  

I've always loved the idea of villains essentially moving around and taking on different heroes. The FF vs the Juggernaut suggestion that Robbie mentioned sounds cool to me! Or Daredevil vs the Abomination for another. A talented person/creative team could make things like this happen.

Instead, we get Juggernaut vs the X-Men part 2,316,047. Why do the villains get stuck in the rut of being strictly in (insert hero) rouges gallery? They should be treated as "free agents", able to drift thru titles to help keep things fresh!

Must the Green Goblin ONLY fight Spider-Man? Why not take on Daredevil or Moon Knight? There are so many first time match-ups waiting to happen that I don't think we'll ever be able to see...
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Vinny Valenti
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Posted: 28 July 2013 at 12:20pm | IP Logged | 10  

 Joe Zhang wrote:
Problem is, as fans we want all (or at least most) of the stories we've ever read to "count". To make matters worse, some of us have read A LOT of stories.

I have to admit that I have been guilty of this. Even when I was a kid I hated the idea that CRISIS made countless other stories "not count", even worse that it did so only partially. it was that sort of thing that swore me off of DC Comics as a regular reader for all these years. I know that I would have been royally pissed if I was a faithful DC reader with years invested in the stories, only to have the rug pulled out from under me.

Now, I'm not saying that that's the correct stance to take, just trying to explain the mentality.

Edited by Vinny Valenti on 28 July 2013 at 12:21pm
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Wallace Sellars
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Posted: 28 July 2013 at 12:31pm | IP Logged | 11  

Problem is, as fans we want all (or at least most) of the stories we've ever
read to "count".
---
I have to admit that I have been guilty of this. Even when I was a kid I hated
the idea that CRISIS made countless other stories "not count", even worse
that it did so only partially.
---
Why would those stories no longer count?
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Vinny Valenti
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Posted: 28 July 2013 at 12:35pm | IP Logged | 12  

Because they no longer "happened". I'm not really defending that attitude, it's just a personal reaction that I hadn't been able to shake.

Edited by Vinny Valenti on 28 July 2013 at 12:35pm
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