Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum Page of 3 Next >>
Topic: Classic Marvel & "Disabled" Heroes. (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
Posted: 30 June 2013 at 9:51pm | IP Logged | 1  

The Iron Man thread reminded me of something I've always loved about classic Marvel. Each of the characters were "handicapped" or disabled in some way.

FF: The Thing is horribly disfigured.

Iron Man: Shrapnel inches away from his heart, which armor keeps from killing him.

Daredevil: Blind, but overcomes it through his heightened other senses and his "radar."

Thor: If separated from his hammer for longer than a minute, he will revert to Don Blake, who relies on a cane to walk.

X-Men: Depicted as an "oppressed minority." More specifically, Cyclops can't control his powers and has to wear his visor at all times.

Hulk: Banner has great power as the Hulk but he's also victim to the Hulk's uncontrollable rage.

Spider-Man: In many ways, his own youth is his "disability" -- his self-doubt and neurosis. However, in a practical sense, he's dirt poor.

How many of these elements contribute directly to these characters' enduring popularity? And how many of these elements are now gone?
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Philippe Negrin
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 August 2007
Location: France
Posts: 2644
Posted: 01 July 2013 at 3:07am | IP Logged | 2  

Professor Xavier.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Troy Nunis
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4598
Posted: 01 July 2013 at 5:06am | IP Logged | 3  

Doctor Strange's nerve damaged hands, which i think had no effect on his popularity and is rarely mentioned, really just a device to use in his origin.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132620
Posted: 01 July 2013 at 5:25am | IP Logged | 4  

How many of these elements contribute directly to these characters' enduring popularity?

••

Targeting an audience composed mostly of boys in their early teens, Stan knew that the characters who would have the greatest appeal would be those who, at least in some fashion, reflected typical teenage angst. None of the DC characters of that time did this. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Flash --- they all stepped into their roles as superheroes as if born to them. And, indeed, "born to it" was a recurring theme. A standard trope of Mort Weisinger "imaginary stories" was having Superman shown to have been destined to become Superman, no matter how his life path might have varied.

Across the street at Marvel, the characters were rarely prepared for the roles "Fate chose for them". The FF, the X-Men, Spider-Man, Iron Man, Daredevil, the Hulk -- these were all people suddenly thrust into lives for which they were ill prepared. That they dealt with them as well as they did was a sign of their strong characters, but getting to that point was often a struggle. Marvel heroes accepted their fates, but reluctantly.

This felt very familiar to teenage boys (I was close to that audience, being 11 when I started reading Marvel "full time", as opposed to occasional glimpses at the barber shop). Rolling into one's teen years was like having one's whole life turned, if not upside down, at least on its side. Physical changes were as much an embarrassing inconvenience as anything else. (There, I was lucky. I drifted thru puberty hardly even noticing it, but I did see my friends and classmates thumping over those speedbumps.)

And, of course, the assumption was that once kids got thru those turbulent times, they'd be leaving comics behind, and new readers would have been flowing in to replace them.

++++

And how many of these elements are now gone?

••

One of the things that struck me as very odd when Bill Mantlo took over ALPHA FLIGHT was that he seemed embarked upon a campaign to remove anything that made the characters -- and the book -- "different". He changed Puck, he "fixed" Bochs, he made Heather a superhero.

Mantlo was not alone. There came upon Marvel an era of writers and editors who seemed determined to erase anything that was unusual about the characters in their personal lives.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Manuel Tavares
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 December 2009
Location: Portugal
Posts: 407
Posted: 01 July 2013 at 5:50am | IP Logged | 5  

"One of the things that struck me as very odd when Bill Mantlo took over ALPHA FLIGHT was that he seemed embarked upon a campaign to remove anything that made the characters -- and the book -- "different". He changed Puck, he "fixed" Bochs, he made Heather a superhero."
John Byrne
~~~~~~~~~
I can understand how shocked you were seeing Mantlo making all those changes to the characters that you created, JB.
But I confess that dealing with disability is not an easy issue.
Sure that Stan Lee was targeting a much more human aspect of the audience using "human imperfections" as opposed to DC that had the "all perfect" super guys. But as a reader I often felt compelled to fix Peter Parker's problems or just thinking that if its a Marvel Universe where hyper advanced technology and science exists wouldn't it be cool to arrange it some how for the Bochs and give him his legs back? 

I don't want to contradict the title of this topic by mentioning DC, but I find it curious to mention that the opposite happened to Batgirl when the Joker shot her and putted her in a wheel chair. Recently Barbara Gordon was fixed and she returned as Batgirl.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Matthew Wilkie
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 09 March 2011
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1139
Posted: 01 July 2013 at 6:17am | IP Logged | 6  

One of the things that struck me as very odd when Bill Mantlo took over ALPHA FLIGHT was that he seemed embarked upon a campaign to remove anything that made the characters -- and the book -- "different". He changed Puck, he "fixed" Bochs, he made Heather a superhero.

* * *

For me it got even curiouser when Mantlo "cured" one of his own AF characters, Laura Dean (sister of Goblyn), of autism.


Edited by Matthew Wilkie on 01 July 2013 at 6:18am
Back to Top profile | search
 
Lars Sandmark
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 October 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 3144
Posted: 01 July 2013 at 8:27am | IP Logged | 7  

As readers we are emotionally invested in the life stories of these characters, and naturally want to see things work out for them.
When a writer mistakenly wants to repair all of the character's problems, he ruins the emotional empathy.
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132620
Posted: 01 July 2013 at 9:18am | IP Logged | 8  

As readers we are emotionally invested in the life stories of these characters, and naturally want to see things work out for them.
When a writer mistakenly wants to repair all of the character's problems, he ruins the emotional empathy.

••

Roger Stern used to say of one writer that his stories lacked a certain zip because he loved the characters so much he could not bring himself to do bad things to them! And, of course, if we don't do bad things to the characters, we don't get very exciting stories!

Back to Top profile | search
 
Valmor J. Pedretti
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 October 2011
Location: Brazil
Posts: 786
Posted: 01 July 2013 at 9:45am | IP Logged | 9  

In the other hand, some modern writers wouldn't miss a chance to rape, mutilate or kill characters, just because they dislike them.
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Manuel Tavares
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 December 2009
Location: Portugal
Posts: 407
Posted: 01 July 2013 at 10:00am | IP Logged | 10  

"In the other hand, some modern writers wouldn't miss a chance to rape, mutilate or kill characters, just because they dislike them."
Valmor J. Pedretti
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Or simply because some modern writers just tend to be commercial and descriptions of mutilations and killings or even a rape are shocking and sells.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Daniel Gillotte
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 October 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 2623
Posted: 01 July 2013 at 12:20pm | IP Logged | 11  

"And, of course, if we don't do bad things to the characters, we don't get very exciting stories!"
One of the things I like about Joss Whedon, despite his obvious love of his characters, he almost never avoided putting them through (or sometimes in) Hell.
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 8515
Posted: 01 July 2013 at 9:22pm | IP Logged | 12  

On the faux commentary track for "Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along-Blog" when asked what the story is about, Whedon intones, "It's about PAAAIN..." to which another of the actors says, "Let's not talk to Joss right now. He's dark and scary."

Joss loves the dark and the pain. He wrote the introduction to Brad Metzler's "Identity Crisis" and praised it highly. To see those once-bright and shining, stainless super-heroes dragged through sordid episodes of rape, murder, and unethical practices tickled him greatly.

It's worth noting, though, that Joss hits a lot of notes in his work, and the "dark and scary," while always there and reliably painful for characters and audiences alike, is not the be-all and end-all. He also brings genuine warmth, humor, wit, adventure, discovery, and any number of other effective emotional beats. It's hardly the same one-note theatre I find so often with other "dark" writers such as Millar, Mills, Ellis, Ennis, Robinson, et al.

As for disabled heroes in general, there are some perceived difficulties with them that many writers struggle with. First off, they are seen as difficult to relate to, both for the writer and the general reader. Very few young readers identify greatly with the hero in the wheelchair. They may like them just fine, but it is hard to know exactly what they're feeling, to what degree anger plays a role, or what it's like to deal with chronic, persistant pain and social discomfort.

Of course, it's also hard to know just what it's like to turn into a gamma-irradiated monster, but in that case, there aren't others waiting by the sidelines to tell you how wrong you were.

There's the perceived danger of stereotyping. Or creating characters who are without flaws so that whatever group is represented doesn't take offense. On the whole, it shouldn't be as hard as it's imagined to be, however.

Mantlo went all out, given a team of "freaks" and unpleasant, painful medical cases, to erase all of that and turn them into relatable, reliably fit and heroic super-heroes, and in so doing lost sight of the central Marvel thesis that we are all freaks and we've all made mistakes, and we're all in or have been in situations we'd rather not be. We just have to make the best of it. You can screw up as badly as a person can, and there is still a world out there with potential girlfriends, social acceptance, and bat-winged anarchists from the Negative Zone out there waiting for us.

Many, many readers could identify with and admire JB's original take on Roger Bachs, whether they were confined to a chair or not. What Mantlo's thin, trim, handsome young devil had to offer anyone is lost on me. Similar arguments are made concerning Barbara Gordon. Batgirl is a beloved character and icon, but the cost of her return was the genuinely original and evocative Oracle. Which is truly more deserving of the reader's time and attention? The debate continues, and just to be on the safe side, Barbara seems awfully worried about the possibility of a relapse much of the time...



Edited by Brian Hague on 01 July 2013 at 9:24pm
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 

Page of 3 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login