Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum Page of 12 Next >>
Topic: A World without Wolverine (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133193
Posted: 25 May 2013 at 10:50am | IP Logged | 1  

It's a road I have traveled down before. A speculation, based on that moment, shortly after I was assigned as penciler on (not yet UNCANNY) X-MEN. Chris Claremont and I were chatting on the phone, and he said "Dave and I could never really figure out what to do with Wolverine, so we were planning to write him out of the book. I think I'll still do that."

In the only instance of ever wrapping myself in the Canadian flag in the 22 years I lived in that country, I rose up on my hind legs and said "We are NOT getting rid of the only Canadian in the book!"

"But we could never think of anything to really DO with him!" said Chris.

"Leave that to me," said I. And thus began the shift of focus. People had been joking around the office for quite some time that the book had become NIGHTCRAWLER - Co-starring the X-Men, and since I couldn't really think of anything to do with Nightcrawler, I devoted my energies to Wolverine.

And the whole industry suffered for it.

Seriously. It's really not towering ego to say that was a "lightning in a bottle" moment. The conjunction of Chris, Terry, me, those characters, that time -- there's really been nothing like it since. And, sure, there was more going on than just "The Adventures of Wolverine" -- Dark Phoenix. Heard of her? -- but I have found that when fans talk about the "cool stuff" in my run with Chris, they go inevitably to the same flashpoints. Wolverine in the sewer. Wolverine killing the guard in the Savage Land. Old Logan in the Future (and his death). Wolverine lifting Heather Hudson off her feet at the moment of their "reunion". None of the other characters racked up an equivalent list. Wolverine -- especially after I left the book -- BECAME the X-MEN.

But supposed I'd agreed with Chris, to write him out? Likely he would have been picked up by some other creative team/book. Maybe he'd have landed in the Defenders. Not likely he'd have become an Avenger. The Champions were already gone. There was really nowhere that we might have expected that "lightning" to kindle -- it was a one time/one place moment. Wolverine would probably have faded into the background, remembered fondly by fans but otherwise on the shelf with Howard the Duck, or Man-Thing, or Nova. Occasional attempts at resurrection, with varying degrees of success, but nothing like what we've seen. (Consider that the X-Men movies, despite being made decades later, were squarely anchored on the foundations Chris and I laid.)

Would there have been someone else? Maybe, but history doesn't do much to support this idea. The Vision had been hugely popular in THE AVENGERS, but he'd not been able to spin off into his own little empire. Spider-Man seemed already at the top of his game. The Thing, the "original Wolverine", if you will, had not started the same kind of groundswell.

There had been nothing like Wolverine, really, in the whole history of comics. Maybe the Hulk comes within hailing distance -- an unsuccessful, barely noticed character at first, who gained new life with a "second chance". But the Hulk didn't become the axle* upon which Marvel rotated.

Without Wolverine, and the success he undeniably brought to the X-Men, and what was then built upon that (often at the expense of other books), what would the industry be like today?

Very different, I think. And a lot healthier.

____

* Feels almost as if a "no pun intended" is necessary right there. . .

Back to Top profile | search
 
Matt Hawes
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 16496
Posted: 25 May 2013 at 11:31am | IP Logged | 2  

"...Wolverine -- especially after I left the book -- BECAME the X-MEN..."That is what it eventually seemed to become! And with the movie adaptations, I'd say it definitely is treated that way (excepting "First Class," though even there Wolverine had a cameo).The only character that I have seen that is close to a rival for Wolverine in a similar vein is Deadpool. He was kind of a cult thing at first. Various mini-series came out through the 1990s' and early 2000s', but sometime in this past decade Deadpool became huge. It seems like every kid or teenager that comes into my shop asks if I have Deadpool comics.

Edited to add:

And I do believe there would have been no Deadpool with no Wolverine, first. Deadpool is basically Wolverine mixed with Spider-Man smart-aleck-ness and the Joker's dark sense of humor.

Edited by Matt Hawes on 25 May 2013 at 11:33am
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Dave Phelps
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4184
Posted: 25 May 2013 at 11:42am | IP Logged | 3  

I honestly don't think it would have made much of a difference.  The biggest problem the industry has is a dearth of "cool new ideas" that have wide mainstream appeal since the 90s implosion. 

The current (Big Two) market is focused more on bleeding Avengers fans and trying to figure out how to get more people to read Aquaman than coming up with new exciting concepts for people who aren't interested in starting up on 25-75 year old properties.  The only ones who are trying to do new stuff are the creator owned folks, most of whom (present company excluded) have problems with getting the books out in something resembling a timely fashion.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Matt Hawes
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 16496
Posted: 25 May 2013 at 11:45am | IP Logged | 4  

 Dave Phelps wrote:
...I honestly don't think it would have made much of a difference...


If Wolverine had been written out of "Uncanny X-Men" when JB started on the title? I think there would have been a BIG difference in things. Wolverine's impact has been huge on the industry. Whether or not the industry would be in a better or worse state had things been different, I can't really say. I do think things would be very different in some way, though.
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Kip Lewis
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 March 2011
Posts: 2880
Posted: 25 May 2013 at 11:51am | IP Logged | 5  

I wonder if someone else would have became "Wolverine."
Maybe a brand new character, maybe another character
revamped.

Wolverine arrived at the time of cultural change.
Society and entertainment in general were becoming less
optimistic and even more grim and gritty. If it wasn't
him, it would have been someone else, or comics might
have faded even faster.

Thinking about your comment of the X-Men "cool stuff"
moments that people look back on; while those are on my
list too, Cyclops and Garrok optic beam war; Colossus
super heated body, Colossus losing to Gladiator, and
oddly, Colossus pulling a tree stump out of the ground
are on my list. (Colossus might be on my list more than
Wolverine. Sadly, I doubt he could support a solo
title.)

Edited by Kip Lewis on 25 May 2013 at 11:56am
Back to Top profile | search
 
Ronald Joseph
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 18 April 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 1784
Posted: 25 May 2013 at 11:54am | IP Logged | 6  

Without Wolverine, and the success he undeniably brought to the X-Men, and what was then built upon that (often at the expense of other books), what would the industry be like today?

This immediately made me think of the old "if god didn't exist, we'd have to invent him" line.   

There's a very good chance that some other character would have risen to the top the way Logan did and, once there, led the industry down an even worse path! Who knows.

I'd like to think there's an alternate reality where he's nothing more than a supporting character in a long-running John Byrne's Alpha Flight title.    

Back to Top profile | search | www e-mail
 
Nathan Greno
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 9154
Posted: 25 May 2013 at 11:59am | IP Logged | 7  


I wish comics were more lighthearted and fun... less dark. I liked Wolverine when I was a kid, but now it seems everything is a version of that tone. 

Back to Top profile | search
 
Bill Guerra
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 March 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 1072
Posted: 25 May 2013 at 12:06pm | IP Logged | 8  

I usually lean to the "nature abhors a void" way of thought about these types of things. I've always believed that if Wolverine didn't become...well, Wolverine as we all know him to be, another character would have stepped in to fill that void.

Heck, for all we know, there is some uncreated character out there who is the Wolverine of comics in some alternate reality! More than likely, the Punisher would have - more or less - stepped into the role.

This sounds like a job for What If?!
Back to Top profile | search
 
Darren Ashmore
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 April 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 959
Posted: 25 May 2013 at 12:18pm | IP Logged | 9  

Would the X-Men itself have still taken off without the Claremont/Byrne/Austin Wolverine?  If I recall correctly the book was bi-monthly when JB took over the art and at the time had a loyal but SMALL following.  Whilst the dynamic of the creative team would still be there I think the group would maybe have moved in quite a different direction.  The anti-hero amongst the noble heroes was different from anything we had seen previously and was a very big drawing point for the book at that stage and Wolverine did seem to become a focal character. Certainly from my point of view it was a case of 'what is this guy going to do next?'.  

Back to Top profile | search
 
Thomas Moudry
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5060
Posted: 25 May 2013 at 12:18pm | IP Logged | 10  

Maybe we would all be sick of Banshee...!
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133193
Posted: 25 May 2013 at 12:34pm | IP Logged | 11  

I honestly don't think it would have made much of a difference. The biggest problem the industry has is a dearth of "cool new ideas" that have wide mainstream appeal since the 90s implosion.

••

You're clearly not thinking that through.

When Stan, Jack, Steve and the others created the "Marvel Age", they did so by defining a broad template -- "Here is the face of the future. This is what comics are going to be now!"

Wolverine defined a very NARROW template. Suddenly all the characters had to be imitations of Wolverine -- "grim and gritty" became the prevailing motif. Was it already there before Wolverine? Yes -- but Wolverine gave it a shape others could more easily imitate.

No "cool new ideas" since the 90s? Could that be anything to do with so many "creators" copying and recopying the SAME idea, over and over and over?

Back to Top profile | search
 
Aaron Smith
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 06 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 10461
Posted: 25 May 2013 at 12:46pm | IP Logged | 12  

It's strange, but I still rarely find myself thinking of Wolverine as a major character, despite his immense popularity. He just doesn't seem like the type who should be that popular. I like the character (or at least I did when he was properly portrayed), but to me he'll always be just one of the X-Men, not a character who should have multiple titles or a movie series devoted to him. 
Back to Top profile | search | www e-mail
 

Page of 12 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login