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Brian Miller
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Posted: 05 June 2013 at 8:12am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Perhaps the dark side can be used to cloud the perceptions of those
who use the good side?

************

Doesn't Yoda say ( in either EMPIRE or JEDI) something like, "Difficult to read, the Dark side is."?

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John Byrne
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Posted: 05 June 2013 at 8:31am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Perhaps the dark side can be used to cloud the perceptions of those who use the good side?

************

Doesn't Yoda say ( in either EMPIRE or JEDI) something like, "Difficult to read, the Dark side is."?

••

No wonder the Jedi got wiped out! Dummies made themselves dependent on a Force their enemies could use against them with impugnity!!

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 05 June 2013 at 10:32am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Do we see Anakin as a "star pilot"? I really cannot recall.
++++++++++

There's the podrace in TPM, of course, but that ain't in space. Then
there's the space battle, where Anakin tries...spinning. Because that's a
good trick. Then he blows up the droid control ship by accident.

There's the speeder chase in AOTC--which also isn't in space--, but
that doesn't seem like much of a standout, since Kenobi is yelling at
him the whole time.

The opening space battle of ROTS gives us one move that stands out
to me; Anakin spins his fighter at high speed, which confuses the
tracking systems of two missiles enough that they make contact with
each other and explode.


So, one cool star-piloting move in three films.

Edited by Greg Kirkman on 05 June 2013 at 10:39am
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 05 June 2013 at 10:37am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Spinning seems to be his signature move.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 05 June 2013 at 10:37am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Doesn't Yoda say ( in either EMPIRE or JEDI) something like, "Difficult
to read, the Dark side is."?

••

No wonder the Jedi got wiped out! Dummies made themselves
dependent on a Force their enemies could use against them with
impugnity!!
+++++++++++++

Yoda's makes a reference to the dark side clouding everything in
AOTC, and Windu mentions that their ability to use the a force is
diminishing, a plot point that's never mentioned again.

It almost sound like there's not enough Force to go around for both
sides, or something.


And, yes, the Jedi really do come off as dummies in the prequels, don't
they?

Perhaps this was an another early story idea (the dark side being able
to cloud the perceptions of light side-users) that was shown to be
majorly flawed once it was put into practice for the prequels?
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 05 June 2013 at 10:45am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

I just noticed who started this thread. Pete!
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John Byrne
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Posted: 05 June 2013 at 10:55am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Yoda's makes a reference to the dark side clouding everything in AOTC, and Windu mentions that their ability to use the a force is diminishing, a plot point that's never mentioned again.

It almost sound like there's not enough Force to go around for both sides, or something.

••

Lucas must not be very good at math! If "the Force is an energy field created by all living things" then it should be constantly INCREASING, unless something is seriously diminishing the amount of life in that far, far away Galaxy.

(And let's not even get into how many people I have encounter who, despite the opening card in EVERY SINGLE F**KING STAR WARS MOVIE, insist the stories take place in our Galaxy, and in the Future. No wonder so many drank the kool-aid!!)

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John Byrne
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Posted: 05 June 2013 at 10:59am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Do we see Anakin as a "star pilot"? I really cannot recall.

++++++++++

There's the podrace in TPM, of course, but that ain't in space. Then there's the space battle, where Anakin tries...spinning. Because that's a good trick. Then he blows up the droid control ship by accident.

There's the speeder chase in AOTC--which also isn't in space--, but that doesn't seem like much of a standout, since Kenobi is yelling at him the whole time.

The opening space battle of ROTS gives us one move that stands out to me; Anakin spins his fighter at high speed, which confuses the tracking systems of two missiles enough that they make contact with each other and explode.

So, one cool star-piloting move in three films.

••

I think you skipped an important part of my post, Greg:

'We see [Anakin] showing himself as a good fighter pilot, but is that the same thing? Going by the first film, for instance, don't Luke and Han have different skill-sets? "Flying thru hyperspace ain't like dustin' crops, kid." Han is a star pilot, Luke isn't.'

Ask any real pilot if flying fighters automatically makes someone good at (or even ready for) flying bombers or commercial liners.

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 05 June 2013 at 11:14am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Lucas must not be very good at math!
+++++++++

Let us also not forget that the Jedi were said to have guarded the Republic "for over a thousand generations" in SW, and the Republic is then said to have "stood for a thousand years" in AOTC. Not the same thing!
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John Byrne
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Posted: 06 June 2013 at 7:31pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Since a "generation" is normally taken as between twenty and thirty years, no indeed!

Unless, of course, the timeline is VERY different from what we think, and Luke, when we see him first is on the order of 20,000 years old!

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Glen Keith
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Posted: 07 June 2013 at 4:37am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

"Yoda's makes a reference to the dark side clouding everything in
AOTC, and Windu mentions that their ability to use the a force is
diminishing, a plot point that's never mentioned again."
=======================
I took that to mean that the Sith were actively "clouding" the force, sort of like jamming radar. Of course, that still makes the Jedi look weak, or stupid, because they don't seem to be trying very hard to come up with countermeasures.

Of course, Yoda does say that the Jedi have become arrogant and too sure of their powers.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 07 June 2013 at 12:13pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

STAR WARS shouldn't be the kind of story where the viewer has to provide meaning. "I took that to mean..." is not a phrase that should ever crop up in a discussion.

When the first movie came out, no one walked out of the theater sifting thru complexities, seeking the "meaning" of various scenes, lines, bits of backstory. What we got was what we saw.

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DW Zomberg
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Posted: 08 June 2013 at 12:34pm | IP Logged | 13 post reply

Especially when "I took that to mean" to often boils down to, "After seeing the movie multiple times and it still not making sense, I decided to 'fix' it in my head."
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Glen Keith
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Posted: 09 June 2013 at 6:54am | IP Logged | 14 post reply

Actually, that's what I took it to mean upon my first viewing. It's Lucas's hobby to "fix" Star Wars, not mine.


Edited by Glen Keith on 09 June 2013 at 7:01am
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Richard White
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Posted: 09 June 2013 at 7:04am | IP Logged | 15 post reply

"(And let's not even get into how many people I have encounter who, despite the opening card in EVERY SINGLE F**KING STAR WARS MOVIE, insist the stories take place in our Galaxy, and in the Future. No wonder so many drank the kool-aid!!"

Back in the 90's when I was a film student, my teacher was discussing Utopian and dystopian films set in the future and began to talk about Star Wars. I think he took a big dislike to me when I pointed out the film was set in the past and not even in our galaxy!

I think this was the defining moment as to why I'm not a big shot Hollywood director. Perhaps.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 09 June 2013 at 10:02am | IP Logged | 16 post reply

A related story, which I have mentioned before, occurred at MidOhioCon the years HIDDEN YEARS was making its debut. A very sincere and serious fan approached my table and told me that as much as he liked my work, he did not plan to pick up XHY. "I just don't like stories set in the Past," he said.

He was wearing a STAR WARS t-shirt at the time.

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Richard White
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Posted: 09 June 2013 at 10:37am | IP Logged | 17 post reply

Was there a letter in the Hidden Years complaining about a baseball cap being worn backwards because people didn't do so in the 60's?

Edited by Richard White on 09 June 2013 at 10:37am
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Michael Penn
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Posted: 09 June 2013 at 11:41am | IP Logged | 18 post reply

"...a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away..."

When I saw the original movie at the time of release, my only thought about this was, "oh... the movie has nothing to do with earth." And that was it. Because it was so simple, not at all a prompt for further speculation, even to this day I don't re-watch the film and wonder about the events in relation to earth. So silly to over think what's nothing more than "once upon a time (but not around here)..."!

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John Byrne
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Posted: 28 June 2013 at 4:29am | IP Logged | 19 post reply

When STAR WARS was made we were seeing something very close to the last gasp of the Central Casting style of aliens. STAR TREK would, of course, continue to give us Klingons and Romulans, and the STAR WARS sequels and prequels were bound by their own established lore -- but more and more moviemakers were turning away from guys with pointed ears or a layer of green paint playing aliens.

This, of course, creates a BIG PROBLEM for the more anal STAR WARS fans. Luke, Leia, Han, Ben -- even Vader and his gang of Imperials, are all so relentlessly HUMAN, how can this story truly be set "a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away"? There MUST be SOME connection to Earth!

Same kinds of knuckleheads that try to figure out when Conan's Hyborian Age "really" happened, or just how the map of Middle Earth lines up on a contemporary Globe.

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Jack Bohn
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Posted: 15 July 2013 at 9:14pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

I'm not sure I ever noticed the last gasp of Central Casting aliens; perhaps I was too impatient to get fourteen foot tall, four-armed green Martians, even the lizard masks on actors in "V" left me wanting - couldn't they have at least had alligator arms?
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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 21 July 2013 at 3:23pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

 Greg Kirkman wrote:
...I wonder how much of it
seemed shocking for audiences as each successive film was released?
Did, say, Kenobi's comment or Vader's mechanical hand seemingly
come out of left field for some viewers, who hadn't seen or read
anything outside the movies themselves?...


I was a kid when the original movies all came out (8-years-old when STAR WARS was released, 14-years-old by JEDI), but the only thing I would say was shocking to me was the revelation that Darth was Luke's father. I think I pretty much groaned at Leia being Luke's sister.

 Greg wrote:
...Anyone here doubt that he
was human upon the original film's release? Or guessed that he was a
cyborg of some kind, prior to the famous ROLLING STONE interview
that introduced the idea if the lava duel to the public?...


I figured Darth was human, but I don't recall if I thought he was a cyborg before that was mentioned in the films.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 21 July 2013 at 5:19pm | IP Logged | 22 post reply

On first viewing, the constant, regulated breathing led me to read the suit as a walking iron lung. It was clearly something other than what we'd heard with Kier Dullea's labored breathing in 2001. Just how much else the suit was doing I didn't really get a fix upon until the "Ah ha!" moment of that ROLLING STONE article.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 05 May 2015 at 8:44am | IP Logged | 23 post reply

Yesterday I found my Vader face posted to another website, with ensuing discussion. After what seemed an interminable segue into the worthiness of Ewoks, the thread settled into a discussion of whether or not my interpretation worked in context.

And there I found a disturbing display of the amount of Kool-Aid drinking among STAR WARS fans. Despite all evidence to the contrary -- including some from Lucas himself -- there were plenty, perhaps the majority, who did not buy my version. To them, it did not fit the arc of redemption which, as we know, has been part of Vader's story ALL ALONG.

And then there was the one guy who said my drawing wasn't "realistic."

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Stéphane Garrelie
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Posted: 06 May 2015 at 2:08pm | IP Logged | 24 post reply

I like this version. 
I like it better than the ROTJ one.
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Stephen Robinson
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Posted: 06 May 2015 at 6:26pm | IP Logged | 25 post reply

JB: And there I found a disturbing display of the amount
of Kool-Aid drinking among STAR WARS fans. Despite all
evidence to the contrary -- including some from Lucas
himself -- there were plenty, perhaps the majority, who
did not buy my version. To them, it did not fit the arc
of redemption which, as we know, has been part of
Vader's story ALL ALONG.

SER: Vader as a "redemption story" fails, I think,
because the character goes too far (he's committed more
war crimes than most Nazi leaders). And even in classic
tragedy, where we might feel some sympathy for the
murderous lead (Othello, Hamlet, even Macbeth), the
character's end is wholly bleak -- there's no quick shot
of Othello in "spirit form" happy and reunited with
Desdemona.

Also, the story Lucas tells in JEDI arguably isn't even
a "redemption." Vader doesn't suddenly feel remorse and
sacrifices himself to save innocent Rebels on Endor. He
sacrifices himself to save his son. One of the worst
Nazis might kill Hitler if Hitler had a gun pointed at
his son. That doesn't suddenly make this Nazi a hero to
the Jews.

STAR WARS -- the real one -- is a fairy tale of sorts.
And fairy tales are clear stories of "good" and "evil."
Even Vader turning to the Dark Side is the "fallen
angel" (Satan). And Satan doesn't become "good" again.

Lucas wanted something "deeper," maybe, and I think that
led to the trap of modern superhero comics that resist
the simplicity and beauty of "good" vs. "evil."
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