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Eric Smearman
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Posted: 11 May 2013 at 7:43pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

I never bought the Leia reveal. I went along with Darth Vader as Luke's
father because I thought it would be revealed that Vader was a clone of
Luke's true father (Clone Wars being mentioned in the original). Leia
being Luke's twin sister seemed to be a lame way of resolving a love
triangle.
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Manuel Tavares
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Posted: 11 May 2013 at 8:24pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

"Leia being Luke's twin sister seemed to be a lame way of resolving a love 
triangle."
Eric Smearman
~~~~~~~~~~~~
You might have something there, Eric.

Maybe Lucas hadn't all figured out in detail. He knew the story, but the details he might had it building up as he went along. That seems logic.
That's why the original movie (episode IV) do not match the prequels. In fact I thought Lucas intended to remade the original trilogy to perfectly match his new one. I'm not a hardcore fan of the original in the way that one would feel bad seeing it being remade. I would like to see the old trilogy being remade. 
But I understand that there are divergences between fans that on one side stand for the integrity of the original movie and on the other side are those who feel fulfilled with the approach of the prequel trilogy.
I think that the original movie is always preserved in any case and since the holders of its property rights manage to make it accessible to the public in the various formats (DVD, Blu-ray, etc.) there wouldn't be no problem in doing a remake of it to make the perfect bridge to guaranty the flow in the narrative between the prequels and episode IV followed by V and VI.


Edited by Manuel Tavares on 11 May 2013 at 8:27pm
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Phil Frances
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Posted: 11 May 2013 at 8:54pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

JB - Remembered just now that I still had a copy on my harddrive of a drawing I did for a friend

That composite image is just brilliant - quite horrific when you take a minute to consider the shattered man that once was and the reliance on the invasive ( and painful ) technology keeping him 'alive'. Far, far better than the potato-head we got at the end of ROTJ

Plus, I see Luke in there also - even with all that damage, there is somehow a family resemblance

Truly extraordinary work - thanks, John
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Jodi Moisan
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Posted: 12 May 2013 at 12:36am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

That Vader would have been so much cooler, I always thought the damaged Vader looked like a Humpty Dumpty after he fell.




Edited by Jodi Moisan on 12 May 2013 at 12:37am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 12 May 2013 at 6:04am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Plus, I see Luke in there also - even with all that damage, there is somehow a family resemblance

Far from my intent, of course!!!

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John Byrne
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Posted: 12 May 2013 at 6:11am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

shielding Luke from a horrible truth

Is Luke a fragile twelve year old, or an adult who should be treated as such? There was no reason for Kenobi to "lie," and no reason to retcon him into a liar.

Because that theme has never been done before? By this logic, EVERY use of protecting someone from the truth (agreed, usually a poor choice on the teller's behalf) means that the teller is a manipulative bastard who can never be trusted.

Hardly that!

What makes Kenobi a manipulative bastard in this scenario is that his lie turns Luke against Vader specifically. Luke "hates the Empire", but Kenobi turns that hatred into a personal grudge. A grudge based on a falsehood.

If, on the other hand, Ben is telling the truth (as he WAS when STAR WARS was originally released), then Luke has a good REASON to have a personal grudge against Vader.

Kenobi is about to take Luke out into a very dangerous universe, and the temptations of the Dark Side of the Force will be a very real part of those dangers. The "true" fate of his father would serve as a caution to Luke, a very important defense, especially if Vader should somehow learn who Luke is and try to lure him over to the Dark Side, too. Kenobi's lie denies Luke any protection against that scenario -- a scenario which Kenobi must realize is a very real possibility.

Once again, we come back to the repeated proofs that Lucas did NOT have it "all worked out from the start". That this was NOT "The Tragedy of Darth Vader". If the object, from the beginning, is to tell a tale of redemption, do not make the central character one who participates in torture and mass murder (on a planetary scale!). "Oops, my bad!" isn't really going to be enough to turn that one around.

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Michael Penn
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Posted: 12 May 2013 at 6:37am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Kenobi's lie denies Luke any protection against that scenario -- a scenario which Kenobi must realize is a very real possibility.

***

And it makes Yoda's ultimate chiding of Luke's almost ultimately calamitous error of rashly charging off to save his friends because "not ready you were" (or whatever is his garbled syntax) come off as so churlishly uncharitable and unjust. Maybe if, starting with Obi Wan, you had told Luke the truth from the get-go...!!?


Edited by Michael Penn on 12 May 2013 at 6:40am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 12 May 2013 at 8:03am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Back to that letter Lucas sent to the producers of LOST:

" Don't tell anyone ... but when 'Star Wars' first came out, I didn't know where it was going either. The trick is to pretend you've planned the whole thing out in advance. Throw in some father issues and references to other stories -- let's call them homages -- and you've got a series."

No chance at all we can put this baby to bed forever now, right?

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Joel Tesch
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Posted: 12 May 2013 at 4:09pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Yeah, he feel the Force in Luke, but not in Luke's twin sister. And wasn't it stated somewhere that the Force is strong in the Skywalker family? So strong that Vader can't even feel it in his own daughter?

===

It's far from perfect, but here's an explanation. He can only sense the Force in others if they've tapped into it. Leia hadn't at the time so there was nothing to sense. He senses it with Luke the first time during the Death Star dogfight bc Luke has tapped into and is using the Force at the time.

Regardless, the real reason is that Leia wasn't intended to be Luke's sister until they wrote Jedi (even during the making of Empire!). Empire tuckered Lucas out so much that he decided he didn't want to do the future trilogy anymore...and so needed a way to resolve the "there is another" mystery. Having Leia be Luke's sister killed two birds with one stone by addressing that and fixing the love triangle.
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Stephen Robinson
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Posted: 13 May 2013 at 9:17am | IP Logged | 10 post reply


The Leia thing was a twist too far. The Vader/Luke thing is imperfect, but I don't see it as being a disastrous decision. No aspect of the Leia thing works. Luke's faith in Vader's ability to be redeemed felt missplaced to me and then Vader's sudden switching against the Emperor didn't work for me either. I'd have believed he could have turned against the Emperor out of greed or anger, but not out of virtue.

***

SER: It wasn't virtue. Vader betrayed his superior out of love, which is a tremendous character progression from when as a young man, he... betrayed his superior out of love.

Huh?

Narratively, it would have made more sense if Skywalker's fall was related purely to power lust with him regarding his family as obstacles to that power. This would then contrast with his actions in JEDI.

As it is, he's just a sociopath... but that's still good enough to get into Jedi heaven apparently.
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Stephen Robinson
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Posted: 13 May 2013 at 9:22am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

JB: What makes Kenobi a manipulative bastard in this scenario is that his lie turns Luke against Vader specifically. Luke "hates the Empire", but Kenobi turns that hatred into a personal grudge. A grudge based on a falsehood.

SER: Luke asks Ben, "How did my father die?" The noble response is the truth. But a "protective lie" would be "I don't know." Half-truths are the *worst* types of lies.

I think we all have our own moral lines in the sand, and the "from a certain point of view" retcon is so egregious to me that I'd only ever show STAR WARS to my kids. I'd want them to see the scene as it was intended as as Guinness played it -- a brief but deliberate questioning of whether to burden Luke with this and then... Kenobi does the right thing and you can tell it's painful for him.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 13 May 2013 at 10:46am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Half-truths are the *worst* types of lies.

"The bitterest truth is better than the sweetest lie."

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