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Manuel Tavares
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Posted: 11 May 2013 at 8:24pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

"Leia being Luke's twin sister seemed to be a lame way of resolving a love 
triangle."
Eric Smearman
~~~~~~~~~~~~
You might have something there, Eric.

Maybe Lucas hadn't all figured out in detail. He knew the story, but the details he might had it building up as he went along. That seems logic.
That's why the original movie (episode IV) do not match the prequels. In fact I thought Lucas intended to remade the original trilogy to perfectly match his new one. I'm not a hardcore fan of the original in the way that one would feel bad seeing it being remade. I would like to see the old trilogy being remade. 
But I understand that there are divergences between fans that on one side stand for the integrity of the original movie and on the other side are those who feel fulfilled with the approach of the prequel trilogy.
I think that the original movie is always preserved in any case and since the holders of its property rights manage to make it accessible to the public in the various formats (DVD, Blu-ray, etc.) there wouldn't be no problem in doing a remake of it to make the perfect bridge to guaranty the flow in the narrative between the prequels and episode IV followed by V and VI.


Edited by Manuel Tavares on 11 May 2013 at 8:27pm
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Phil Frances
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Posted: 11 May 2013 at 8:54pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

JB - Remembered just now that I still had a copy on my harddrive of a drawing I did for a friend

That composite image is just brilliant - quite horrific when you take a minute to consider the shattered man that once was and the reliance on the invasive ( and painful ) technology keeping him 'alive'. Far, far better than the potato-head we got at the end of ROTJ

Plus, I see Luke in there also - even with all that damage, there is somehow a family resemblance

Truly extraordinary work - thanks, John
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Jodi Moisan
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Posted: 12 May 2013 at 12:36am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

That Vader would have been so much cooler, I always thought the damaged Vader looked like a Humpty Dumpty after he fell.




Edited by Jodi Moisan on 12 May 2013 at 12:37am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 12 May 2013 at 6:04am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Plus, I see Luke in there also - even with all that damage, there is somehow a family resemblance

Far from my intent, of course!!!

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John Byrne
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Posted: 12 May 2013 at 6:11am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

shielding Luke from a horrible truth

Is Luke a fragile twelve year old, or an adult who should be treated as such? There was no reason for Kenobi to "lie," and no reason to retcon him into a liar.

Because that theme has never been done before? By this logic, EVERY use of protecting someone from the truth (agreed, usually a poor choice on the teller's behalf) means that the teller is a manipulative bastard who can never be trusted.

Hardly that!

What makes Kenobi a manipulative bastard in this scenario is that his lie turns Luke against Vader specifically. Luke "hates the Empire", but Kenobi turns that hatred into a personal grudge. A grudge based on a falsehood.

If, on the other hand, Ben is telling the truth (as he WAS when STAR WARS was originally released), then Luke has a good REASON to have a personal grudge against Vader.

Kenobi is about to take Luke out into a very dangerous universe, and the temptations of the Dark Side of the Force will be a very real part of those dangers. The "true" fate of his father would serve as a caution to Luke, a very important defense, especially if Vader should somehow learn who Luke is and try to lure him over to the Dark Side, too. Kenobi's lie denies Luke any protection against that scenario -- a scenario which Kenobi must realize is a very real possibility.

Once again, we come back to the repeated proofs that Lucas did NOT have it "all worked out from the start". That this was NOT "The Tragedy of Darth Vader". If the object, from the beginning, is to tell a tale of redemption, do not make the central character one who participates in torture and mass murder (on a planetary scale!). "Oops, my bad!" isn't really going to be enough to turn that one around.

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Michael Penn
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Posted: 12 May 2013 at 6:37am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Kenobi's lie denies Luke any protection against that scenario -- a scenario which Kenobi must realize is a very real possibility.

***

And it makes Yoda's ultimate chiding of Luke's almost ultimately calamitous error of rashly charging off to save his friends because "not ready you were" (or whatever is his garbled syntax) come off as so churlishly uncharitable and unjust. Maybe if, starting with Obi Wan, you had told Luke the truth from the get-go...!!?


Edited by Michael Penn on 12 May 2013 at 6:40am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 12 May 2013 at 8:03am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Back to that letter Lucas sent to the producers of LOST:

" Don't tell anyone ... but when 'Star Wars' first came out, I didn't know where it was going either. The trick is to pretend you've planned the whole thing out in advance. Throw in some father issues and references to other stories -- let's call them homages -- and you've got a series."

No chance at all we can put this baby to bed forever now, right?

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Joel Tesch
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Posted: 12 May 2013 at 4:09pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Yeah, he feel the Force in Luke, but not in Luke's twin sister. And wasn't it stated somewhere that the Force is strong in the Skywalker family? So strong that Vader can't even feel it in his own daughter?

===

It's far from perfect, but here's an explanation. He can only sense the Force in others if they've tapped into it. Leia hadn't at the time so there was nothing to sense. He senses it with Luke the first time during the Death Star dogfight bc Luke has tapped into and is using the Force at the time.

Regardless, the real reason is that Leia wasn't intended to be Luke's sister until they wrote Jedi (even during the making of Empire!). Empire tuckered Lucas out so much that he decided he didn't want to do the future trilogy anymore...and so needed a way to resolve the "there is another" mystery. Having Leia be Luke's sister killed two birds with one stone by addressing that and fixing the love triangle.
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Stephen Robinson
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Posted: 13 May 2013 at 9:17am | IP Logged | 9 post reply


The Leia thing was a twist too far. The Vader/Luke thing is imperfect, but I don't see it as being a disastrous decision. No aspect of the Leia thing works. Luke's faith in Vader's ability to be redeemed felt missplaced to me and then Vader's sudden switching against the Emperor didn't work for me either. I'd have believed he could have turned against the Emperor out of greed or anger, but not out of virtue.

***

SER: It wasn't virtue. Vader betrayed his superior out of love, which is a tremendous character progression from when as a young man, he... betrayed his superior out of love.

Huh?

Narratively, it would have made more sense if Skywalker's fall was related purely to power lust with him regarding his family as obstacles to that power. This would then contrast with his actions in JEDI.

As it is, he's just a sociopath... but that's still good enough to get into Jedi heaven apparently.
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Stephen Robinson
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Posted: 13 May 2013 at 9:22am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

JB: What makes Kenobi a manipulative bastard in this scenario is that his lie turns Luke against Vader specifically. Luke "hates the Empire", but Kenobi turns that hatred into a personal grudge. A grudge based on a falsehood.

SER: Luke asks Ben, "How did my father die?" The noble response is the truth. But a "protective lie" would be "I don't know." Half-truths are the *worst* types of lies.

I think we all have our own moral lines in the sand, and the "from a certain point of view" retcon is so egregious to me that I'd only ever show STAR WARS to my kids. I'd want them to see the scene as it was intended as as Guinness played it -- a brief but deliberate questioning of whether to burden Luke with this and then... Kenobi does the right thing and you can tell it's painful for him.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 13 May 2013 at 10:46am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Half-truths are the *worst* types of lies.

"The bitterest truth is better than the sweetest lie."

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Michael Penn
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Posted: 13 May 2013 at 11:12am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

"A man who lies merely hides the truth. But a man who tells half-lies has forgotten where he put it."
-- Robert Bolt, Lawrence of Arabia
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 13 May 2013 at 2:22pm | IP Logged | 13 post reply

I think a major failing of the prequels is the fact that the Jedi come off
as boring, arrogant characters. Kenobi is about the only one who has
some wit and energy to him, largely because of McGregor's charm. I
really wish McGregor had been given better material to work with,
because I can see him doing a bang-up job with the original backstory,
and pushing Vader into that volcano at the climax.

Yoda's too cutesy and fortune-cookie-message-giver in the prequels
for my tastes, and he lost the mix of playful charm and heavy wisdom
he'd had in EMPIRE.

The prequels attempted to bring Kenobi back to being the noble
straight-arrow he was in the original film. He's not really responsible for
anything that goes wrong, save for his (unfortunately necessarily, plot-
wise, since Lucas had painted himself into a corner) utter failure to,
y'know, put his burning friend out of his misery/make sure that Vader's
really dead.


The original film gave the impression that the Jedi and Father
Skywalker were tragic heroes to be mourned, not creepy a**holes who
kinda deserved it.

Let's be honest: the only emotion in the Order 66 sequence comes from
John Williams, not from seeing alien Jedi extras whom we don't know
or care about getting killed.
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 13 May 2013 at 4:30pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

Fair points, Greg. The Jedi of the prequels are a dull, effete bunch.

Agree with what you say about Yoda's lack of depth and intelligence and the perfunctory Order 66.scenes.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 13 May 2013 at 8:05pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

Lucas has at last admitted, in writing, that he did not have a master plan worked out when STAR WARS was released. Still, we can look at the fabricated version, "The Tragedy of Darth Vader," and see the inversion of the backstory as told by Ben Kenobi. There IS a tragedy there, but it is one of arrogance, human weakness and betrayal.

If Lucas had only stuck to that story, we might have had a real "saga" for the ages, and not a patchwork that shreds if anyone really looks at it.

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 14 May 2013 at 1:14am | IP Logged | 16 post reply

The inherent problem is that, while the Father Vader backstory is a
brilliant one with tons of dramatic potential, it's not the story Lucas
began to tell.


Changing the spine of the plot while in mid-story is...well...cheating!
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John Byrne
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Posted: 14 May 2013 at 6:27am | IP Logged | 17 post reply

As noted, PLANET OF THE APES Syndrome -- to make the "sequel", we erase the original.
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Stephen Robinson
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Posted: 14 May 2013 at 1:14pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

GREG: The inherent problem is that, while the Father Vader backstory is a
brilliant one with tons of dramatic potential, it's not the story Lucas
began to tell.

Changing the spine of the plot while in mid-story is...well...cheating!

SER: I wouldn't mind the change if it made sense and didn't negatively impact character.

I personally wouldn't have made Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader the same person. Basically have Vader reveal he's Luke's son (information not even Kenobi knew), which would add new meaning to "betrayed" and murdered Skywalker. Unfortunately, that's a bit too salacious for the type of film Lucas was making*

*Though I recall some war films where this plot device is used in a relatively family friendly way -- soldier is believed lost in conflict, close friend of soldier "comforts" grieving widow, soldier returns unexpectedly and so on.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 14 May 2013 at 1:29pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

I found myself wondering if there was any way to do the "real" story in the same manner as the STAR TREK fumetti I've been playing with. Unfortunately, I don't think there are enough images for what I need.
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 14 May 2013 at 3:54pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

Basically have Vader reveal he's Luke's son (information not even Kenobi knew), which would add new meaning to "betrayed" and murdered Skywalker.

****************

What? Are you bringing time travel into it?

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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 14 May 2013 at 3:58pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

I think a major failing of the prequels is the fact that the Jedi come off 
as boring, arrogant characters.

----

I thought that was to service the whole "Tragedy of Darth Vader" story. Anakin's actions were partially justified because the Jedi were arrogant bastards who had it coming to them. 

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 14 May 2013 at 9:36pm | IP Logged | 22 post reply

I found myself wondering if there was any way to do the "real" story in
the same manner as the STAR TREK fumetti I've been playing with.
Unfortunately, I don't think there are enough images for what I need.
++++++++++

Yer killin' me, Byrne!


FIND A WAY, MAN!
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John Byrne
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Posted: 15 May 2013 at 4:32am | IP Logged | 23 post reply

Anakin's actions were partially justified because the Jedi were arrogant bastards who had it coming to them.

Yeah, those kids were really asking for it!

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Aaron Smith
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Posted: 15 May 2013 at 7:07am | IP Logged | 24 post reply

I think a major failing of the prequels is the fact that the Jedi come off
as boring, arrogant characters. Kenobi is about the only one who has
some wit and energy to him, largely because of McGregor's charm. I
really wish McGregor had been given better material to work with,
because I can see him doing a bang-up job with the original backstory,
and pushing Vader into that volcano at the climax.

***

Thinking about the prequels, each of which I've only seen once, I think McGregor's work was the only part of them I really liked!
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John Byrne
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Posted: 15 May 2013 at 7:23am | IP Logged | 25 post reply

The only real problem I had with McGregor was the same problem I often have when young actors play roles created by older actors -- the young actors are not convincing to me, since I know what the older actors looked like when young. McGregor looks nothing like the young Alec Guiness.
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