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Topic: DC - inaccessible from 2004 until 2011? (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Chuck Wells
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 11:28am | IP Logged | 1  

For me the worst manifestation of this at the moment - whether talking DC or Marvel -  is this weird facade of familiarity that is being draped over what in effect is a mish-mash of continuity. 

I can still find a very few titles that entertain me, based on the creators involved if nothing else, but overall everything being published by Marvel and DC is nothing close to what I prefer as a customer. I've basically decided that it is well past time that I moved along.

Comics were never silly to me, and I found no reason to be embarrassed for liking "funny books" as I got older. That changed as more and more "fanboys-turned-professionals" took root and started foisting their "fan-fiction-style" versions of original/classic stuff that they read or saw in earlier generations of comics. These mostly highly respected and popular writers/artists make names for themselves by putting new spins on established characters, storylines, and specific events from the past AND then they sit around at conventions being lauded for "creating" the latest iteration of the same old thing. [I mean how many Robins and Spider-Men do we really need? Why does Gotham City suddenly need an entire costumed army to protect it?] That's not at all what I "got" from comics as a kid from the 1960s until the 1980s; after that it pretty much became touch and go for me as a reader. I only require simple escapism and fantasy; and face it - that's quite gone now!

Marvel and DC have become a great big "bada boom bada bing" kind of empire of diminishing returns between pro-faux-hipsters who believe that they are modern creative geniuses; and ass-kissing fan-supplicants (who for some ungodly reason) that continue to think the same thing.

I don't pick up a single Marvel title, and I still like Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, X-Men and The Avengers (you know, their biggest franchises), but for all of the rack space that just those few trademarks occupy, in my estimation - they no longer publish books that Ican recognize as those characters. At DC, I really enjoy what Peter Tomasi, Fernando Pasarin and Scott Hanna do in Green Lantern Corps, I've also come to appreciate Justice League Dark (I just wish that group of characters operated under a different name) and Aquaman (while not without faults) has been great fun.
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Phil Kreisel
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 12:41pm | IP Logged | 2  

One of the DC franchises that re-booted from scratch was the JSA in Earth-2. 

In my opinion, this title does not satisfy me one bit.  I've been giving it a chance, but I'm on the verge of dropping it since the characters I'm reading in this book are placeholders. They're not "the real thing" which I define as the JSA characters created in the 1940's and revised in the 1960s. In Earth-2, there are characters flying around with the names of the JSA.  For a new reader though, maybe this reboot will work for them.

On the other hand, I'm okay with World's Finest (even though I miss Amanda Conner's Power Girl).  The George Perez art in this title certainly helps.

I hated the Flash reboot and dropped the title.  I dropped Superman (though I'm keeping Action for now).  Teen Titans is on my endangered list, as is Green Arrow, Supergirl, Superboy and JLA.  I gave up on Green Lantern and Batman years ago.  If I desire to read GL, I'll pick up one of my back issues from the mid-70's or earlier.

The Legion of Super-Heroes is one of the only DC titles that I still look forward to.  Funny thing with that one was with all the reboots that that title went though, DC did revert back to the original cast (around the time of the Great Darkness storyline).  So it is possible to go back.

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 12:52pm | IP Logged | 3  

I just have visions of "Extremely Final Crisis" in 2020. You read it here first. :)
+++++++++
 
....which will be retconned in 2025 by "Final Extreme Crisis Reborn".
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Stephen Churay
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 2:01pm | IP Logged | 4  

Do y'all think DC will return to their prior continuity at some point, or is
the New 52 here to stay?

=======
They've already written themselves an out. If I had to guess, at some
point, certain aspects of the old Universe that were successful will
probably be squashed together certain aspects of the New52 Universe
that are successful.

It will be COUNTDOWN CRISIS TO THE ULTIMATE DC UNIVERSE
REBORN. The one change that we'll get that's not part of either
Universe is that the superheroes will quit wearing pants.
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 4:31pm | IP Logged | 5  

....which will be retconned in 2025 by "Final Extreme Crisis Reborn".

***

At least there'll be a break until about 2035 when "Ultimate Crisis" will be published.

One thing I don't like is how no-one is unique. Back in the 80s, I quite liked that Tim Drake (who I thought was likable) took on the mantle of Robin. It seemed to flow organically from what had come before and I liked how it was written, with Drake saying something like, "Batman needs a Robin." It seemed logical and with Dick Grayson as Nightwing, it seemed the right thing to do.

Unfortunately, in my view, all these different incarnations of characters now often comes across as a marketing exercise or an excuse to sell more books/toys. 
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Thomas Moudry
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 5:35pm | IP Logged | 6  

Things were much simpler with Earth-1, Earth-2, Earth-3, Earth-X, Earth-S,
and the 30th/31st century. We didn't need a big-arse Crisis to begin with--
even though those George Pérez pages were pretty.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 5:54pm | IP Logged | 7  

New 52 didn't really change anything with regard to accessible continuity. Instead of being inaccessible if you hadn't read all the titles from the previous 5 years, DC Comics became inaccessible if you didn't know what was going on in Grant Morrison's and Dan Didio's heads that particular day.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 5:57pm | IP Logged | 8  

Do y'all think DC will return to their prior continuity at some point, or is the New 52here to stay?

----

I honestly think it's here to stay. Some may argue that if it stops selling they'll go back to the previous continuity but it wasn't necessarily selling either. This is the DC Universe the way Dan DIdio, Jim Lee, and Geoff Johns want it.

------

I expect there to be some course correction like post-Crisis of Infinite Earths. The post-Crisis Earth stayed in place, but there were several instances of bringing back pre-Crisis elements over time.

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Ed Love
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 6:08pm | IP Logged | 9  

Since the reboot was so haphazard and with the ambiguous 5-year history, it didn't really make the books more accessible to the uninitiated. What it did was make the books almost as confusing for the faithful and long-term readers as the newcomers. Instead of lifting up the newer readers, it cast down everyone else so that everyone's in the same boat. And, now you can't just ask a store employee or go to back issues or trades. And, most started off with the same long story arcs and crossovers that lead to the predicament to begin with.

The lesson from 52 is that it's a success in marketing over substance. If you give enough interviews and advertising A as B, the majority will believe it and reinforce it by buying and quoting it.
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Wallace Sellars
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 6:27pm | IP Logged | 10  

One of the DC franchises that re-booted from scratch was the JSA in Earth-2.

In my opinion, this title does not satisfy me one bit. I've been giving it a
chance, but I'm on the verge of dropping it since the characters I'm reading
in this book are placeholders.

On the other hand, I'm okay with World's Finest (even though I miss Amanda
Conner's Power Girl). The George Perez art in this title certainly helps.

---

Phil, help me to understand your perspective on comic book buying a bit
better.

Why are you "on the verge of dropping" a title that "does not satisfy
[you] one bit"...? Why pay money for something from which you derive no
enjoyment? Why waste the time it takes you to read something you don't
like? How bad does a book have to get before you stop buying it?

For that matter, why would you continue to buy and read a book you are just
"okay with" instead of saving the money for something else? Like... Maybe... I
dunno... A book you really enjoy?
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Aaron Smith
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 7:14pm | IP Logged | 11  

The fact that DC, every few years, decides that the majority of their fan base will get excited about something with "Crisis" in the title shows just how  screwed up the industry has become and how far the ball they dropped had rolled away from them.  
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 7:25pm | IP Logged | 12  

Do y'all think DC will return to their prior continuity at some point, or is the New 52here to stay?

There is no "prior continuity" at DC to which they could return. Ever since the first COIE series way back when, there has never been a single time period at DC during which their titles made sense in relationship to one another, or were ready to move forward rather than looking back over their shoulders for stray debris from previous continuites that they could "rework" and "reinvent" into new, more relevant backstories.

Even when attempts were made to return things to their previous state, the result was always yet another new iteration that did not, could not possibly jibe with what had occured previously. Mark Waid, who famously asked, "Can we have the real Superman back now?" created nothing of the kind when given his bite at the apple. His version is at least as far off-model and consumed with "one author's vision" as the one he set out to displace. It was itself displaced in what may be record time by Geoff Johns' "Hey, they got their's! Where's mine?" iteration. That one lasted to some degree up until Grant Morrison's NuSuperman jumped into traffic with his Lil' Abner shoes and no trunks. Bam, bam, bam. Nothing lasted long enough to gain any traction before the next Celebrity Creator With a Dream trampled it into the dirt to make way for the next One, True, This-Time-We-Mean-It! Superman.

Morrison, of course, had already had his turn with All-Star Superman, so his New NuSuperman is more of a pastiche version, cobbled together on the fly out of leftover ideas not good enough for All-Star and whatever occured to him in the shower this morning. Straczynski had a go at it with Superman Earth-1 (a.k.a. Assassin's Creed in the City*) and that one didn't match anything in any of the others either.

"Oh, no, no. You misunderstand. Those weren't in continuity, you see. They don't count."

Except to those who paid real money for them and found that, like those versions that supposedly were in continuity, what they'd just learned meant absolutely nothing in relation to this month's book. They get to relearn everything about Krypton, Clark's idea of himself, his relationship to his parents, his co-workers... Not one thing ties in with anything else. Superman Earth-1 sold a lot of copies, many I would bet to people who wanted to catch up on the old character and see what he was up to these days. Instead, they got a left-field take that does them no good if they liked it well enough to pick a copy up on the newstand. As if they could. Ha ha.

Another Geoff Johns "fix" was the Great Lightning Saga wherein the Legion was rebooted back to the height of the Giffen/Levitz era, except some number of years later, thereby invalidating all of the stories featuring those characters between their fight with Darkseid and the first of their many, many, many ill-considered reboots. (Hey, one was done entirely by Mark Waid, who was merely the editor on most of the others! And it fit with nothing else. Well, why should it? The name of this game is Doin' It MY Way! Weisinger? Seigel? Binder? Those guys? What the **** do any of them know about storytelling or selling a comic book? Pshaw!! No, no, get this... Colossal Boy is (Hahaha! I'm dyin' here! I'm killin' myself! Yer gonna love this!) from a whole planet of giants, right? And his gimmick is that he can shrink down (Hilarious, am I right? Colossal Boy? Shrinking? Genius, right?!) to (Bwahahaha!!) OUR size! And so... And so... hang on let me catch my breath... And so he wants to be called, "Micro Boy!!" HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! I got a million of these for the new Legion!

A new Legion that of course bore no resemblance to Waid's last attempt to reboot the team. Or the one before that.

Seriously, "previous continuity" at DC? What continuity? They contradicted every fix and refix they put it place, usually within weeks of installing it.

What I could see happening at some point when Didio, Lee, and Johns fall off their podium is a return to form for the characters. Superman learns that his Kryptonian Armor was in fact a symbol of dishonor to his family and removes it, enshrining it at his Fortress (which, of course, looks like no version of the Fortress we've ever seen before... Gotta do it MY way. Every one else got to do it THEIR way. Their way was wrong. MY way is right...! You'll see. It's cool. It's like a big aquarium... With fish made of razor blades and algebra!) Superman then dons a more conventional outfit. More like a circus costume. Maybe even with trunks.

Wonder Woman will never have a consistent backstory ever. The next guy will diss the Papa Zues revelation and show us she was sculpted from clay, a mixture of Pandora's and Galatea's, making her both potentially evil and everyone's perfect fantasy. To which the guy will roll his eyes and ask, "Puh-lease, rilly?" No, no... It was meteorite clay. Wonder Woman's a space alien. Which the next guy will think is an okay idea, since it allows him to do his story about her clay race's natural enemy being walrus-tusked Space-Rapists, who come to Earth and rape Paradise Island into ruins! (Paradise Island was previously destroyed in the last three runs first by an explosion of demons from Hippolyta's womb (She's secretly been sleeping with Hades, earning her Diana's eternal hatred and emnity, just like all those other times Diana feels her mother's done something unforgiveable and hates her. Until she forgives her again. 'Cause that never gets old...), then eight months later in a war with the Eskimo Gods (Thomas Kalamaku finally claims his birthright as a mad diety!) and then again four months after that by an insane Hercules driven mad by Pallas Etherea, the latest in a long line of Uber-Villainess Arch-Foes for Wonder Woman that no one except their original author gives a rat's hindquarters about...) Continuity for Wonder Woman? Lost cause. It will never happen. But I could see them putting her back into a more merchandise-friendly costume at some point. Not that it matters. It's not like anyone reads the comics anymore!

Along the way to that point, Didio's DC may get the idea for an "out-of-continuity" anthology book called "DC Comics Presents" or "DC Special" featuring tales of the characters that could have been written during previous eras... but weren't. And after you've read them, you know why. This one looks a little like Swan drew it. (With his elbows.) This one looks like Kirby! (Or rather Mark Pacella who, no really, looks JUST like Kirby!) Sort of a "Legends of the DC Universe" book that seems edgier and more daring now because it doesn't feature the Jim Lee Superman and Jim is standing right over there while we're drawing it!! Wild, right??

Really, though, I think the Nu52 is more or less here for the duration of the current administration, and the following ones would be morons to clamber down the "Crossovers on Infinite Earths" rabbit hole again...

* See also "Arrow..."

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