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Topic: DC - inaccessible from 2004 until 2011? (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 6:30am | IP Logged | 1  

In 2004, I picked up a DC title for the first time in years. It was SUPERMAN VOL. 2 #204. The story pretty much featured Superman talking to a priest about some disappearance. The art was nice, but there wasn't much story. To think that seventeen years prior, one could have picked up one of Mr. Byrne's issues of SUPERMAN and found an accessible storyline.

Anyway, from 2005 until 2011, I dipped into various titles, but I found it all so inaccessible. "Infinite Crisis" here, "Final Crisis" there, it was all so confusing - and I speak as someone who had a rudimentary knowledge of the characters. The same character appeared to be different in different books. It wasn't clear what was canonical and what was apocryphal. All this talk of "Crisis" was off-putting (wasn't CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS supposed to 'rectify' things back in '85?). 

So I gave up. I've bought very few DC titles from 2005 until 2011 (when titles were relaunched/rebooted), unless you count SHOWCASE volumes and back issues. If I, as someone with a long-term fondness for characters, found it inaccessible, then Heaven help someone who may have casually walked into a comic store.

When I picked up titles years ago, and I know we've discussed this issue countless times at the JBF, it was almost always accessible. There'd be recap boxes with the origins of the characters; there'd be a standalone adventure; and there'd be no need for me to read up on "Infinite Eternal Never-ending This-Time-It's Final Crisis". All that was required was to pick up the specific book I casually came across. In England, the books were sold in newsagents, grocers, at railway stations and even in pharmacies (my local pharmacy had a spinner rack of limited titles). 

If I were a kid now, I doubt I'd get into comics (the boring character poses on some titles don't help). There is nothing accessible. Not all comic companies are the same, but most are. Had it been that way back in the early 80s, when I got into comics, I'd have never have found this brilliant and enriching hobby.

As for DC, I don't know what they're like now. Did the reboot in 2011 change things and make it all so accessible? I have no idea, but from the time I picked up SUPERMAN #204 until about 2010, it was all so daunting. Who wants to do homework or buy six "This-Time-It's-Really-Final Crisis" trade paperbacks? It all dawned on me when, years ago, a friend of mine wanted to get back into the comic hobby and his question was, "Where do I do my homework? Can you bring me up to speed on the CRISIS and ZERO HOUR events?"

Any views on this, folks?


Edited by Robbie Parry on 31 January 2013 at 6:35am
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Petter Myhr Ness
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 7:10am | IP Logged | 2  

Robbie, my experience was very similar to yours. In 2004 I picked up a Superman book (or any comic book) again for the first time in years. I'd simply missed reading them.

Accessibility will always be an issue where there's no clear model for how characters should be portrayed. Where creators, if their star is big enough, get to do pretty much what they like. This is, I feel, an increasing problem and the main reason why I used New 52 as an opportunity to jump off again.

The fact that Grant Morrison was given the chance to reboot Superman was another reason. To see my favourite character running around in jeans, a t-shirt with the S shield and a tablecloth for a cape was more than I could endure.

The many major crossovers in that period certainly didn't help, with INFINITE CRISIS having repercussions for continuity that obviously hadn't been noticed by certain creators of the ongoing titles.

And this was followed by FINAL CRISIS, where Grant Morrison killed Batman a few months before he killed him again in his "Batman R.I.P." storyline. Except he wasn't really dead. (I also seem to remember that Orion died two times during that period.)

By the time I realised I was done, you couldn't read a single issue of GREEN LANTERN without having followed the book for the past four years.

The "New 52" reboot was, in that respect, a major cheat if it promised a fresh start. Green Lantern, for example, continued as though nothing had happened.
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Greg Woronchak
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 9:25am | IP Logged | 3  

Identity Crisis started that whole period off; as a shocking mini-series that looked at super-heroes thru a grim, realistic lens; it created storyline threads that a few writers ran with from Countdown to Infinite Crisis (again, with a 'shocking' plot detail) and finishing (with a confused thud) at Final Crisis.

It looks like the sales generated by these series of events (readers felt obliged to pick up multiple books to appreciate what was going on) led DC to focus too much on them, until they ended up with a wacky mess that only loyal 'fans' could decipher.

Their goal wasn't accessibilty, they targeted squarely the long-time fans, that dwindling market demographic.

Nu52 is an about-face, dumping old readers with 'hip' takes on characters. They're probably more accessible (although not particularly likeable, IMO), until the eventual cross-overs that will muddy the waters again.


Edited by Greg Woronchak on 31 January 2013 at 9:26am
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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 9:26am | IP Logged | 4  

I have a comment in the All-Ages Superman thread that would fit in this thread. My main point is that I can't figure out what Dan DIdio's thinking with alot of the comics that DC has produced. I figure any comment about Didio fits in the timeline discussed here. I know that, as a reader, I thought that we were going to get a" kinder, gentler" DC Universe after Final Crisis but the New 52 really upped the violence factor. It has gotten so bad that I've dropped all but one DC book.



Edited by Shawn Kane on 31 January 2013 at 9:27am
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Aaron Smith
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 9:38am | IP Logged | 5  

It all dawned on me when, years ago, a friend of mine wanted to get back into the comic hobby and his question was, "Where do I do my homework? Can you bring me up to speed on the CRISIS and ZERO HOUR events?"

Any views on this, folks?

***

Forcing a reader to pay attention to continuity or have to do "homework" is one of the biggest mistakes Marvel and DC have made over the past few decades. Had comics been like they are now when I was a kid, I doubt I would have gotten interested in them.

Continuity should be optional. What I mean is: every issue should be understandable by someone who hasn't read that title before. Sure, subplots are fine, but they shouldn't interfere with the reader's ability to feel like they've bought something that can be enjoyed without having to buy anything else or, even worse, look up information on the internet.

When I discovered comics, around the age of 8 (Marvel first, DC a little later), I was able to pick up my first issues of many titles and get a great story out of that one book. I never once felt like there were pieces missing from the experience. There was a certain completeness to each issue, regardless of whether it was part of a longer, serialized story. Now it was also obvious to me that there was history behind these characters. I learned very quickly that there were over 200 issues of Amazing Spider-Man, for example, that came before the first one I read. I learned that there had been a team of X-Men before Storm, Colossus, Nightcrawler, etc. I knew that the then-current Avengers were not the originals and that many other characters had been there first. I found out that there were fifty years of Superman and Batman stories before I discovered those characters. What those bits of knowledge did was make me hungry for more. But that hunger was never a forced starvation. In other words, there was more out there if  wanted it, which I decided I did...but I never felt that the publishers were forcing me to go out and find back issues or read OHOTMU or The Marvel Saga to find out what had happened before my first issue of each title.

That's how it should be. One should have the option to read the current issues without spending extra money or doing homework. If the stories are told well and the comics are entertaining, I think enough fans will WANT to learn more. But forcing them is a turn-off. This would be especially important if (and sadly they're not anymore) the publishers were going after new, younger readers. But even to this older fan, making us do homework just makes me less likely to buy the current comics.

Buying and reading a comic book should be an entertainment choice. Pay for it, enjoy it, and that's it. Yes, some fans make a more complicated hobby out of it, collecting every issue, learning all the trivia and history. I was one of those more hardcore fans for many years, though I'm not anymore, but that should not be the only option for how to enjoy Marvel or DC's comics.


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Thomas Moudry
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 10:26am | IP Logged | 6  

Comic books shouldn't be complicated. A new reader should be able to pick
up the latest issue of Action Comics or The Amazing Spider-Man and be
drawn immediately into the story. If prior knowledge is needed, it should be
imbedded in the story. Simple as that.
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Thomas Moudry
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 10:30am | IP Logged | 7  

I have to agree with Petter, too: The New 52 was not a clean reboot, which it
should have been in order to keep it from being confusing to longtime and
new readers. Green Lantern and Batman continued as though nothing had
changed, but everything else in the New 52 was radically altered. Of course,
inconsistencies ensue: Tim Drake was the third Robin...wait, no, he was
trained by Batman, but never Robin.

If a clean reboot is the promise, that is what should be delivered.
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Thomas Moudry
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 10:31am | IP Logged | 8  

Do y'all think DC will return to their prior continuity at some point, or is the
New 52 here to stay?
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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 10:37am | IP Logged | 9  

My first issue of the X-Men was 103. There was nothing in the issue that I had to question. Everything was laid out to good enough for me to want to read more. I especially wanted to see Cyclops in action because he looked the coolest to me.
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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 10:39am | IP Logged | 10  

Do y'all think DC will return to their prior continuity at some point, or is the New 52here to stay?

I honestly think it's here to stay. Some may argue that if it stops selling they'll go back to the previous continuity but it wasn't necessarily selling either. This is the DC Universe the way Dan DIdio, Jim Lee, and Geoff Johns want it.

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Aaron Smith
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 10:41am | IP Logged | 11  

An issue that always comes to mind when this topic comes up is Fantastic Four 285, which was my first issue of FF. In that story, "Hero" each member of the FF is called by name, the relationship between members is made clear, each member used his or her powers at least once, and the reader is taught everything they need to know about the characters and the title's concept within the context of the story. I read that issue and found all the information I needed about the FF with no requirement to seek out further info, but the well-told story made me WANT to know more and want to read the next issue. 
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 31 January 2013 at 11:05am | IP Logged | 12  

Do y'all think DC will return to their prior continuity at some point, or is the 
New 52 here to stay?

***

I just have visions of "Extremely Final Crisis" in 2020. You read it here first. :)
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