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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133118
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Posted: 06 July 2012 at 12:41pm | IP Logged | 1
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"Classic", "retro", "old school" -- when I was coming up these were all GOOD things to be called. They showed an understanding of and, perhaps even more important, respect for the traditions of the past. They showed an understanding that adding a new floor to a skyscraper doesn't mean tearing down the whole thing and starting from scratch.I was somewhat amused by Joe Hollon's list. Near as I can tell, each of those elements has foundations that date back fifteen or twenty years. So these are furrows the "new" artists have been plowing for a LONG time! When exactly was the "old school"? Jim Lee's been drawing the same way since the early Nineties! Boy, his stuff sure is dated!
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Erin Anna Leach Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 21 February 2006 Location: United States Posts: 746
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Posted: 06 July 2012 at 12:45pm | IP Logged | 2
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So what is that crap they draw in a lot of Brand ecchh books then?
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Joe Hollon Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 08 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 13695
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Posted: 06 July 2012 at 12:51pm | IP Logged | 3
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The consistent characteristic I notice in "modern" comic art is the over use of photo references making all the people look very static and boring.
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Rick Shepherd Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 25 June 2012 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 1095
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Posted: 06 July 2012 at 1:14pm | IP Logged | 4
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Probably it's because you commit the biggest sin of any 'old-fashioned', 'out-dated' comicbook artist: You draw characters on-model.
Seriously - how can I believe that you're a big-name, superstar artist, when you're too concerned about 'fidelity' and 'clear, recognisable depictions', rather than having a totally esoteric artistic style (emphasis on the 'artistic', natch...) that sets you apart from the crowd?
When people see a Byrne Superman, or a Pérez Superman, or a García-López Superman, they're clearly seeing the same character, drawn uniformly. That's practically commercial work, like the people who do prints or posters - there's no artistic vision involved. On the flipside, when you look at the interpretations of Frank Quitely, Jim Lee, Alex Ross, etc., I see the artist. To me, that's a much more creative, innovative route - one is 'art', the other is just being a 'craftsman'.*
Same reason the Richard Donner Superman movie is so dated, nowadays - it's too 'generic'. In comparison, the 'Man of Steel' movie is much more current, because it's clearly a distinct, original take on the character. It's 'Zach Snyder's Superman' - he's made it his own, which is a far more artistic and creative approach than just slavishly recreating the same thing as so many others who came before him.
...and sarcasm OFF. Good grief - even in jest, that wasn't fun to type, because I'm sure many folk out there actually THINK like that...
*sadly enough, that's paraphrased from an actual ear-bashing I got from one of my tutors at Music College. I'm a saxophone player, and learned from my heroes (Charlie Parker, Cannonball Adderley, Gerry Mulligan, etc. - all the legends of yore) - I always figured the trick was to learn the principles from them, in order to develop an individual style that still serves the same function musically, just as they did with their influences.
However, I went to a conservatoire, where I was 'informed' that those guys were no longer considered 'relevant', and that it wasn't truly 'creative' to show your influences and try to maintain the standards of the greats. Nope - the true signs of 'artistic integrity' and 'relevance' are apparently to be completely 'new' and 'esoteric' - specifically, to be unlike anything that came before. That's where the analogy came from - said tutor described players who honoured the traditions of the profession as 'mere craftsmen', churning out recreations of the same-old-same-old, rather than being truly 'original', and 'creative'.
No joke - that's what gets taught to aspiring musicians nowadays. It'd be like Tom Brevoort teaching students as to what makes a 'good' comicbook...
Edited by Rick Shepherd on 06 July 2012 at 1:15pm
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Peter Hicks Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 30 April 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 1954
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Posted: 06 July 2012 at 1:27pm | IP Logged | 5
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"In comparison, the 'Man of Steel' movie is much more current, because it's clearly a distinct, original take on the character. It's 'Zach Snyder's Superman' - he's made it his own, which is a far more artistic and creative approach than just slavishly recreating the same thing as so many others who came before him." Uh...have you seen an advance copy of this movie? It doesn't come out for another year. (Which actually makes no sense, since it was filmed at exactly the same time as Dark Knight Rises).
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133118
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Posted: 06 July 2012 at 1:37pm | IP Logged | 6
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"In comparison, the 'Man of Steel' movie is much more current, because it's clearly a distinct, original take on the character. It's 'Zach Snyder's Superman' - he's made it his own, which is a far more artistic and creative approach than just slavishly recreating the same thing as so many others who came before him."Uh...have you seen an advance copy of this movie? It doesn't come out for another year. •• Does he have to have seen the whole movie?
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Rick Shepherd Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 25 June 2012 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 1095
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Posted: 06 July 2012 at 2:00pm | IP Logged | 7
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Exactly. It's as if, in one image, the film-makers are telling me "trust us - you really won't like where we're going with this!"
Oh, sure, it's 'just the costume', and I might be very wrong - this could be the most accurate portrayal of the character on film, EVER. But in that case, why change the costume if you're going to be so faithful to everything else? More likely, this is a case of 'p*** on it and make it mine' in most other aspects as well - wouldn't be the first superhero movie 'adaptation' to do that...
Sorry - need to post a bit of positivity to make up for all that. How about a bit of 'dated, old-fashioned' art, from the 'olden days' when artists still used quaint things like 'model sheets':
![](uploads/RickShepherd/2012-07-06_140039_JGL_Superman.jpg)
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Mike Norris Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4274
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Posted: 06 July 2012 at 2:06pm | IP Logged | 8
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"Dated" doesn't make much sense to me, because JB is constantly evolving as an artist. While there are similarities between what I saw on the pages of X-Men in the 1980s and what I see in Trio now there has been a consistent artistic evolution. Other artists haven't grown at all in the same time frame.
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Lars Johansson Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 04 June 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 6113
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Posted: 06 July 2012 at 2:08pm | IP Logged | 9
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Let me explain what piss on it means to me. I'm not going to publish Roger Stern's Swedish comments, since JB deleted them once before. But, this is me now: you are a designer, you have studied design. You want money so you have to prove that you are doing something, so you piss or whatever on what is there so you can say "look guys, this is what I did, pay me pay me". Or the producers can just pick a Superman page like that that you have there and send it to China and have them produce costumes like that, no "pissing" needed.
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Patrick McEvoy Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 109
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Posted: 06 July 2012 at 2:09pm | IP Logged | 10
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My take, for what it's worth... For the most part, it's because the "John Byrne style" has been copied and co-opted by a few generations of comics artists by now. It's been mangled and shredded, and garbled like a game of Telephone. It's everywhere, in one way or another. And let's face it: when people see something everywhere they develop a certain ... well, "contempt" is to strong a word. How about "lack of respect" for the source.
It still looks great to me. I'm sure if Will Eisner, Jack Kirby, John Buscema, etc, etc. were still on the job they'd be getting that critique from lesser minds as well. Hell, if Rembrandt were painting today, he'd get it from the "fine-art" community. And it would have just as much meaning - none at all.
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Darren De Vouge Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 04 December 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 3586
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Posted: 06 July 2012 at 3:59pm | IP Logged | 11
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Whenever I hear the expression "old school", used in the derogatory way it is nowadays; my gut reaction is to think: "as opposed to what -- 'no school'?"
Edited by Darren De Vouge on 06 July 2012 at 4:00pm
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12662
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Posted: 06 July 2012 at 4:21pm | IP Logged | 12
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...I have yet to see a review that tells the reader WHY my "art is a little dated". ... Dated, you know, but only a LITTLE dated. . .
***
He that has and a little tiny wit...
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