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Brett Wilson Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 07 April 2010 Location: United States Posts: 318
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Posted: 29 March 2012 at 12:30pm | IP Logged | 1
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I realize this topic has been beaten to death on this forum, however I've been doing some wondering over the past few days after reading the thread about the Marvel talent scout who stated that today's artists take 2-3 days to do a page because they wanted to make real art, unlike the guys from the past who were just doing it for a pay check.
I read somewhere that Jack Kirby could do 4-5 pages in one day and I'm certain not too many people would argue that Kirby wasn't better than any of the artists at Marvel these days. I also read JB's comment on a recent commission thread in which he stated that he started a commission one day, then finished it in about 20 minutes a couple days later.
So is it safe to say that being speedy with your art and actually being able to meet deadlines means that one simply has more skill than someone who needs 2-3 days to do one page?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133119
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Posted: 29 March 2012 at 12:34pm | IP Logged | 2
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Thing is, when I started in the Biz, it was my speed that got me work. The drawing was competent enough, sure, but what Charlton and later Marvel really liked, was that I could produce 3 pages a day of finished pencils.This was, in fact, something that used to IMPRESS the fans. That I was fast. That I "never" missed my deadlines. (No fill-ins on Byrne books -- at least, none that were my fault!) But hitting your deadlines is a whole lot like WORK, isn't it? And a whole lot of fans, who dream some day of becoming pros, don't want to think of it as WORK. They want to think of it as the ultimate paying HOBBY. And hobbies don't have deadlines. So, of course, when someone like Todd McFarlane tells them it's okay to (a) draw badly and (b) be late, and still makes a ton of money, they just LOVE that. Professionalism? Who needs it!
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Paulo Pereira Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 24 April 2006 Posts: 15539
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Posted: 29 March 2012 at 12:39pm | IP Logged | 3
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Brett wrote:
So is it safe to say that being speedy with your art and actually being able to meet deadlines means that one simply has more skill than someone who needs 2-3 days to do one page? |
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Depends on the quality of the art, which is partly subjective. But a whole lot of lines, or even a lot of well-placed details, doesn't necessarily make art better. Too much detail certainly slows some people down, which suggests that some of the skill involves knowing when to stop.
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Ivan Black Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 09 May 2009 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 762
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Posted: 29 March 2012 at 1:02pm | IP Logged | 4
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I haven't worked in comics, but in the design-and illustration field that I've known, being fast and producing top quality is the golden standard. If you're late with work, you don't work again to put it like that. Puzzles me how delivering great quality on a fast turnaround isn't seen as impressive, which it is. Delivery by the deadline agreed upon, should be the minimum of what to expect. Failing to do so, well - that's what's looked upon as the difference between professionals and hobbyists in my circles.
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Jason Mark Hickok Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 08 February 2009 Location: United States Posts: 10472
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Posted: 29 March 2012 at 1:21pm | IP Logged | 5
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The problem is as well that even the guys that can hit deadlines every month (and there are more than 6) are very rarely given the chance to prove it. Late arriving scripts, constantly being moved from book to book, or being essentially forced into a rotation make it very difficult.
A good friend of mine (Marvel artist) has told me time and time again that he can easily do 1.5 books a month and 2 I'd need be. You would think Marvel would use him up. Not even close. I think he had a total of 8 books last year due to scripts and being moved around. He never missed any deadline in those. Very broken system.
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Steve D Swanson Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 04 May 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 1374
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Posted: 29 March 2012 at 1:49pm | IP Logged | 6
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The more you do something, the better and the faster you get at that thing (generally speaking). That makes sense, right? And yet you have fans who somehow believe that someone who has produced 600 pages in a year (two comics monthly and some covers, maybe a fill in or two) has become less of an artist then someone who only managed around 100 pages in that same time frame. The more you do, the better you get, the better you get, the faster you are. I'd take that to be self evident but explaining it to people seems difficult sometimes. The most common response is that artists do not make widgets, as in they're not a mere craftsman but an artist. Except I always thought art was a combination of craft and artistry so to denigrate one aspect by calling it unnecessarry, or in fact saying that the presence of that aspect (craft) is an indicator of a lack of the other aspect (artistry) is all kinds of strange to me. I've been doing a webcomic for two and a half years, day in and day out I come home and draw (I'm not comparing the work load of a humor comic with the work involved in a comic page) and the strange things is producing about 500 of the suckers has made me better at it. Not where I want to be, not yet, but closer than I was. And if I had only done 200 in that time frame? Well, my 200th strip wasn't really all that well drawn and I would have missed out on the learning opportunities presented by the other 300 strips.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133119
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Posted: 29 March 2012 at 1:55pm | IP Logged | 7
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I'll tell again a story Archie Goodwin used to tell. An artist came into Archie's office one day, saying he needed more time to finish a job that was due the next week. "How much time do you need?" Archie asked, remembering this artist had been assigned the job in June, and it was now December. "At least three months," said the artist. "Okay," said Archie. "Let's say you started in March." This is the most important detail that seems so often to be lost on so many current artists (and not a few in days gone by). Extra time is to be calculated into the scheduled AHEAD of the due date, not beyond it. If a project is due in July, and it's now April, and it will take you six months to complete the job, YOU CAN'T DO THAT JOB! "Growing roses" is fine -- but calculate how long it will take you to grow them and work your schedule BACKWARDS based on that time. (And for dog's sake, be REALISTIC! If you once drew the White Tiger, Iceman and the Invisible Woman fighting the White Queen and Xemnu in a blizzard, and you produced six pages in one day DON'T ASSUME THAT'S YOUR STANDARD SPEED!)
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Erin Anna Leach Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 21 February 2006 Location: United States Posts: 746
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Posted: 29 March 2012 at 2:22pm | IP Logged | 8
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Well with the internet, and our ability to send pages as an e-mail, I see no excuse to miss deadlines. Once the page is penciled and approved it can go directly to colorist, and then on to the letterer. Even if the penciler only drew one page a day, the title would still be on time. That is if the colorist and the letterer work at a similar speed. Most of the people I know coloring and lettering are able to complete more than one page a day. What is the other problem here is the hiring practices at the publishers. They tend to not hire the people that can hit a monthly deadline.
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Brett Wilson Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 07 April 2010 Location: United States Posts: 318
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Posted: 29 March 2012 at 2:31pm | IP Logged | 9
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Thanks for the replies. I've obviously never worked in the industry either, luckily this forum features someone who actually has. If baffles me that the concept of being speedy/ on time however you want to look at it hasn't been chalked up to having more skill.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 29 March 2012 at 3:11pm | IP Logged | 10
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With the Internet...••• I have long maintained that "modern technology" has served to make us SLOWER. Once upon a time, if you lived in, say California, and your publisher was in New York, a job that was due on Tuesday had to be in the mail by no later than the previous Tuesday, just to be on the safe side. Then came "overnight couriers", so completion of a job that was due on Tuesday could be put off until Monday afternoon. Then came the fax machine, and a job that was due on Tuesday could be put off until Tuesday!
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Mike Norris Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4274
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Posted: 29 March 2012 at 5:15pm | IP Logged | 11
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Takes more discipline, that's for sure.
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Stephen Robinson Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5835
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Posted: 29 March 2012 at 8:10pm | IP Logged | 12
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My understanding is that Jack Kirby worked demanding hours to produce as much as he did. It wasn't a matter of choosing whether to take a break to play video games during a normal work day but choosing to work well into the night and also on weekends.
You could also be naturally quick and produce enough pages in a 40-hour-week to pay the rent. Although even in those days, you never got Todd MacFarlane money.
Maintaining deadlines requires simply knowing what you can deliver over a certain period of time. It's not that difficult. Professionals also bake in sick days, vacations, and allow for emergencies. If you can only produce a page a day, you shouldn't be on a monthly book unless you plan to work weekends and never get sick.
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