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Topic: Science "vs" Religion -- Again! (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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John Byrne
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Posted: 29 June 2011 at 10:05am | IP Logged | 1  

I have been reading lately a book by Peter Byrne (no relation, so far as I know!) about Hugh Everett III. If that name rings no bells, don't worry about it. Everett is a colossus in a very precise field, that of the practical application of the theory of the multiverse to quantum physics. It was, in fact, Everett (1930-1982) who first, in the late 1950s, postulated the notion that reality is actually composed of many "parallel universes", with the interaction of energies and particles within those "parallel universes" constantly creating new ones. (Simply put, my action of typing this post has created an entire universe in which I didn't type this post, and another in which I typed a different post, and so on, until the nearly infinite variables are exhausted. And each of those nearly infinite variables are themselves creating nearly infinite variables, constantly, all the time.)

In the epilog of this book, there is the following quote:

"Now in the beginning of the 21st Century, faced with scientific claims like neo-Darwinism and the multiverse hypothesis in cosmology invented to avoid the overwhelming evidence for purpose and design found in modern science, the Catholic Church will again defend human nature by proclaiming that the immanent design evident in nature is real. Scientific theories that try to explain away the appearance of design as the result of 'chance and necessity' are not scientific at all, but, as John Paul put it, an abdication of human intelligence."

Christopher Schoenborn, Cardinal Archbishop of Vienna, 2005

Of course, science has never had, as part of its overarching mandate, and desire or need to "explain away" religion. Science, by its nature, deals with facts, and is therefore unconcerned with fictions, however grandiose, unless, of course, they block the investigative pathways science must follow.

This has been a significant role the the Church for many centuries, of course. Which brings us to the inherent irony of the statement quoted above. It is not science that tries to "explain away" what is real, but rather religion which, by its very nature, has sought even in its most primitive forms to create "explanations" for and of the natural world. Unlike science, various religions have then taken it upon themselves to spread their imaginary solutions at the point of a sword.

Religion is traditionally about making up stories, needed, at the time, to fill the gulf of ignorance created be the lack of practical, testable knowledge. Science steps in to take up that particular battle, but, alas, all too often finds itself battling religion as well, as superstition and fear are used to control the minds and hearts of believers, and that which IS true and testable is dismissed, as in the statement from Cardinal Schoenborn.

The reality, tho, to frame it in a slightly different context, is that a geographer, when drawing a map of the world as we know it, is not in any way attempting the "explain away" Tolkien's Middle Earth, just as the various NASA missions to Mars contained no instruction to overturn the writings of Edgar Rice Burroughs.

As an amusing sidebar…

I was introduced to the concept of parallel universes by the writings of Garner Fox (1911-1986).

Gardner Fox. . .

Hugh Everett III. . .

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Michael Penn
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Posted: 29 June 2011 at 10:32am | IP Logged | 2  

The Cardinal's quote can make your head spin with its chockablock contradictions, assumptions, and lack of sense.

Modern scientists, with whom the Catholic Church ostensibly sides, possess overwhelming evidence of design and purpose, except that some modern scientists intentionally (but with what motives, to what ends?) make claims to "avoid" (huh? what does that mean? ignore? dispute? suppress?) that evidence.... yes, really? Is there evidence of these intending-to-avoid scientists? In the radical fringe minority, are they, to so unreasonably "avoid" (again, huh?) "overwhelming evidence"? And if modern science (via majority consensus opinion) has already proven design with "overwhelming evidence," why does the Catholic Church have to proclaim that same evidence as additionally "real"?
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John Byrne
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Posted: 29 June 2011 at 10:40am | IP Logged | 3  

It's very easy to find "design and purpose" in the Universe -- if we look at the whole "story" from the wrong end. Some like to point to the "perfect" balance of elements that make the Earth -- and, indeed, the Universe -- capable of supporting life as we know it. Shift some of those elements by only a tiny fraction, and the Earth cannot sustain us. So it must have been INTENTIONAL, right?

But if we read the story from the beginning, instead of looking only a the "last page", we see that the history of the Earth (and, again, the Universe) is one of many chapters, most of which were most intolerant of weak little biological blobs like us. We are here because our ancestors managed to get a toe-hold during one of the brief periods when the Earth was a bit more forgiving -- not buried in ice, for instance -- not because the Earth was specifically tailor made FOR us. Life adapts to the environment, not the other way 'round -- however appealing it might be to our egos to assume the reverse.

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Marc Foxx
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Posted: 29 June 2011 at 11:11am | IP Logged | 4  

Hmmm...were Gardner Fox (no relation, sadly) and Hugh Everett III ever seen in the same place at the same time, or did one mysteriously (serendipitously? suspiciously?) show up after the other had left the room?
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Michael Penn
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Posted: 29 June 2011 at 11:52am | IP Logged | 5  

...the Catholic Church will again defend human nature by proclaiming that the immanent design evident in nature is real.

***

Not surprising that a Cardinal would choose the word "immanent," replete with christological significance. No doubt he does not assert a non-religious, nor even a non-denominational immanence, though he doesn't mention Jesus Christ, Who is One with God the Father, and came down to... etc.

Contrary to the Cardinal's designs, however, "immanent" can mean: "taking place within the mind of the subject and having no effect outside of it."
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F. Ron Miller
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Posted: 29 June 2011 at 12:06pm | IP Logged | 6  

Speaking of design and purpose, what does a theory of a multiverse serve? I mean, it's entertaining to contemplate such a possibility and it's a challenge to consider the implications but why posit such a thing in the first place? What question does such a theory seek to answer?
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John Byrne
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Posted: 29 June 2011 at 12:11pm | IP Logged | 7  

Speaking of design and purpose, what does a theory of a multiverse serve? I mean, it's entertaining to contemplate such a possibility and it's a challenge to consider the implications but why posit such a thing in the first place? What question does such a theory seek to answer?

••

Apparently the multiverse hypothesis provides answers for some of the questions posed by quantum theory. And Stephen Hawking has embraced the multiverse as a "solution" to one of the more vexing problems presented by black holes.

From what I have read, the multiverse is also a possible solution to one of the biggest questions about gravity, ie why is it so weak? We think of gravity as an enormously powerful force, and yet every day we beat gravity in the most casual ways. Just stand up, for instance, and you are working against the ENTIRE PLANET pulling down on you.

Some have suggested this inherent weakness in gravity might be explained if the force is not "native" to our universe, and is actually "leaking in" from somewhere else.

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F. Ron Miller
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Posted: 29 June 2011 at 12:16pm | IP Logged | 8  

Trippy. Thanks JB.
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Lars Johansson
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Posted: 29 June 2011 at 12:47pm | IP Logged | 9  

But why is the force of gravity here at all? What is it? It's exatly like acceleration, since if I have Ant-man and want him to stick on my hand even if I hold it vertically, I have to run faster and faster and he will feel it as gravity. If someone drops a comic book or let's say something much much much less valuable such as a bible, why does it fall down just because we are on a planet?
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Erin Anna Leach
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Posted: 29 June 2011 at 1:23pm | IP Logged | 10  

To the Cardinal I would say that at least science in the end has to prove what it says. I don't think i have ever seen religion do the same. I have often wondered if gravity was a shared force through out the multiverse, and that is why it is so weak.
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Ted Pugliese
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Posted: 29 June 2011 at 5:50pm | IP Logged | 11  

Gravity may be the weakest of the fundamental forces but it is also the
strongest, in that it works across the greatest distances. On a smaller
scale, think how it holds together Pluto and the sun. Pretty fricken
cool.

I was 10 when I first hypothesized about quantum gravity being
domething akin to electromagnetism, and I still suspect that somehow
it radiates from stars holding solar systems, galaxies, and the universe
together.

These forces hold nuclei together, atoms together, molecules together,
and the entire universe together. It makes sense that they also hold
the multiverse together and only vary in strength relative to the size
and distances they span. Electromagnetism is stronger than gravity,
but I wonder if you compare the energy of the quanta that hold the
electron around the nucleus to the energy that holds Pluto to the sun,
if still seems so week. This difference, too, I think is simply relative...

But I can't do the math :-(

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John Byrne
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Posted: 29 June 2011 at 6:13pm | IP Logged | 12  

It's very tempting to think of gravity as something akin to magnetism. It's been played that way in science-fiction and comicbooks for decades. Centuries, even.

But the reality, as with so much else in the universe, is very much stranger. (Remember, "the universe is not only stranger than we suppose, it is stranger than we CAN suppose.")

Gravity isn't like the attraction between charged particles. It's all about the mass of objects "bending" spacetime, so that a less massive object "falls into" the "depression" created by a more massive object. And that applies to all objects, no matter their size.

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