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Topic: Jim Shooter: Hank Pym Not a Wife Beater (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 30 March 2011 at 5:11am | IP Logged | 1  

Pym was without a doubt a cheuvanist with mental issues (esp around the time of Ultron).  That we cannot deny.

Shooter without a doubt wrote that story - especially the script and subsequent panels as mentioned above. That he cannot deny.

He ramped Pym from a cheuvanist to a wife beater. Marvel should just let him move on from that - other characters have moved on from their mistakes (Sorry, mistakes the writers made), why can't he? (Sidebar - one of the comments mentions Peter Parker punching a pregnant Mary Jane across a room - did that happen?)

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Thanos Kollias
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Posted: 30 March 2011 at 6:18am | IP Logged | 2  

Pym was without a doubt a cheuvanist with mental issues (esp around the time of Ultron).  That we cannot deny.
+++
Sorry, Pym was presented to have temporary paranoia/insanity or some such, which altered his behavior and which stopped being the case. It was a two issue deal and it was resolved.


Edited by Thanos Kollias on 30 March 2011 at 6:34am
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Michael Penn
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Posted: 30 March 2011 at 6:20am | IP Logged | 3  

There's something quite harmful, I think, in what Shooter says:

>Before I embarked on the storyline that led to the end of Hank Pym and Janet van Dyne’s marriage, I reread every single appearance of both characters.  His history was largely a litany of failure, always changing guises and switching back and forth from research to hero-ing because he wasn’t succeeding at either.<

Generally, it should be standard practice for a writer to refresh himself with what has previously gone on regarding the characters before embarking on a storyline. However, more particularly, I think it is quite wrong to try to conglomerate "every single appearance" of characters when that "history" extends for decades, not only because inconsistencies might not be able to be ironed out, but much worse because comicbook character does not exist in even a facsimile of real time such that there should be an accumulation of experience that will fundamentally change the primary nature of the character. And this doesn't only apply to superheroes. If we look at "every single appearance" of J. Jonah Jameson and try to conceive him on the basis of his "history" altogether, the man should have long been in the loony bin by now. 

Doing what Shooter says he did in re Hank Pym shortchanges both the character and the new reader. To try to write a comicbook character as if she/he has a mass of accumulated history that changes who that character is, well, that's not only utterly contrived and but utterly against fundamental comicbook conventions. It ruins comicbooks, in my opinion. And Shooter ruined Hank Pym.
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Greg Woronchak
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Posted: 30 March 2011 at 6:28am | IP Logged | 4  

Shooter insisted the pages be sent back to me to be "finished properly".

Ugh, must've taken a thick skin to work for such people. I applaud (and continue to do so) your professionalism!

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Stéphane Garrelie
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Posted: 30 March 2011 at 6:31am | IP Logged | 5  

Mmm both Jim Shooter and Bob Hall are on Facebook.... and are Facebook friends......This link to the new entry of the blog isn't posted yet as far as i know, but they all are sooner or later..... So i suppose Bob Hall may eventually comment. :)

 

 

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Stéphane Garrelie
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Posted: 30 March 2011 at 6:37am | IP Logged | 6  

I'll also add that Bob Hall is one of those artists we don't see enough these days.
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Al Cook
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Posted: 30 March 2011 at 7:01am | IP Logged | 7  

I call "BULLSHIT."
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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 30 March 2011 at 7:21am | IP Logged | 8  

Even after Marvel tried for years to rehabilitate Hank Pym's image with Englehart, JB, Harras, and Busiek doing stories in the Avengers (and West Coast), Marvel allowed Chuck Austen to step in and try to ruin him once again. Thank God his run was short lived. Even ignoring Millar's Ulitmate version, Bendis followed in making him very flawed during the Civil War issues of the Avengers. Dan Slott returned Hank Pym to respectability in Mighty Avengers and Christos Gage has done a great job with him in Avengers Academy. I shudder to think if Bendis gets him again.

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Kip Lewis
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Posted: 30 March 2011 at 8:10am | IP Logged | 9  

Just keep in mind the Hank Pym in Civil War was a skrull or several skrulls.  Apparently Pym's personality was so strong he was ruining the Skrulls that took his form and memories.  

Still, hated the original story; that whole era was the Avengers weakest in story and art.  (from around 203 thru 255 or close to that.)


Edited by Kip Lewis on 30 March 2011 at 8:11am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 30 March 2011 at 8:15am | IP Logged | 10  

One of the oddest letters I have ever received about my work came after I had been on FANTASTIC FOUR a few years. I'd been putting the characters thru the mill, as is my usual wont, and a guy wrote to ask why, since I clearly DIDN'T LIKE the characters, I was writing the book.

I was flabbergasted. What this reader interpreted as me doing nasty things to the characters out of some kind of dislike for them, was, from my perspective, me writing the most exciting stories I could. I answered the letter by saying if I didn't LIKE the characters, I would simply chose NOT to write them at all! I could not imagine any writer who would do otherwise.

Unfortunately, I have no trouble nowadays imagining all kinds of writers who seem to be doing just that!

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Wayde Murray
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Posted: 30 March 2011 at 8:44am | IP Logged | 11  

I've commented before about the Pyms, and how Hank wasn't truly the abuser in their relationship.  He suffered amnesia during his first dealings with Ultron (amnesia caused by Ultron), he suffered a "split personality" that created the Yellowjacket persona (caused by an accidental exposure to a mix of exotic chemicals), and he struck his wife (while under the mind control of Egghead).  In each instance, there were in-story explanations for his behavior - not later recons, but in-story reveals that showed that forces way outside his control caused his erratic behavior.  He was never erratic by nature.

Compare to Janet van Dyne, who from her earliest appearance up to well past the time they were married, flirted shamelessly with every man on the team, generally within earshot of Hank.  As introduced, Jan was younger than Hank and generally shown to be flighty and funloving.  And she sought attention from Hank by showing appreciation for every handsome man around.  Bad enough if she were only doing this aloud as a means of making him jealous, but she often thought about what Iron Man looked like under the helmet, bemoaning to herself that he likely didn't resemble "that dreamboat" Tony Stark. 

Hank got a raw deal from Jan regardless of who wrote their adventures, from Stan and Roy on up.  Roger Stern portrayed her (finally!) as a grown woman able to lead the team, but she'd been around for well over 20 years by that point. 

And if you don't think her behavior was abusive, consider if their dominant personality traits were reversed.  What would be the flavor of the stories if Jan were entirely faithful and loving in both word and deed save for isolated incidents that were shown in-story to be not her fault, and Hank was hitting on every attractive woman in every story?  If Hank had been shown to be flirting with Wanda in every issue while still dating Jan, would that be all right, or would it be emotional abuse?  If while dating Jan and flirting with Wanda he was also hitting on any nurse or secretary or schoolteacher or business woman or whichever attractive woman crossed his path?  Why does Jan get a pass for this behavior?

 

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Paulo Pereira
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Posted: 30 March 2011 at 9:02am | IP Logged | 12  

 Thanos wrote:
Bullshit. The story doesn't read in any way to support what Shooter says. The Avengers later meet Jan who is wearing glasses to hide her black eye and then when she takes them off and reveals it, Hank makes no effort to claim t was a mistake.

Hm. Good point. He also says "shut up, woman!"

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