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Topic: "The Hulk That Might Have Been" (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 30 March 2011 at 7:38pm | IP Logged | 1  

I think there's a reason this version of the character is so popular. He's undeniably a good guy. And the misunderstood aspect relates to most kids (it certainly did to me). When done well, you can still "root" for Banner and the Hulk -- even though their goals are at cross purposes. Arguably, though, perhaps the Hulk *wants* the same thing as Banner -- peace, but he can only get it by being cured.

The "darker" Hulk is more complex and arguably interesting but I'm not sure how relatable he is to kids.
++++++++++

Very good point. There seems to be some correlation between the Hulk becoming a more sympathetic monster and his series becoming successful.

Trying in with what I was saying before, the two flavors of Hulk seem to break down thusly:

1. The Hulk is Banner's dark side made flesh. Brutal, sinister, worships power, seeks revenge against humanity.

2. The Hulk is Banner's primal anger/inner child made flesh. Raging, unintelligent, forever seeking peace, not inherently malicious, misunderstood, easily ticked off.



Edited by Greg Kirkman on 30 March 2011 at 7:40pm
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Chad Carter
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Posted: 30 March 2011 at 9:02pm | IP Logged | 2  

 

Stan Lee essentially just went for the Frankenstein Monster misunderstood monster deal, sans the Hulk throwing a little girl into a pond to drown.

I recall as a kid that I didn't really blink when going from Sal Buscema/Ernie Chan Hulk stories to that little Pocket Books reprint of the first Hulk issues where he's doing AWESOME things like this:

I mean, I understood there was a difference but in actuality the television "Incredible Hulk" show had already prepared me for this Hulk. A less powerful Hulk, but more disgruntled and irritable. The Hulk operates on a smaller scale in these issues, even though he saves the entire world twice in six issues (Toad Men and Metal Master). There's still a personal quality to the Hulk's story, which is only rivaled by Peter Parker's soap operas. Most comics of the era didn't show the hero, like Banner, wavering with exhaustion and despair, and yet still trying to correct the worst mistake any scientist had ever made in regards the Gamma Bomb.

I think what got lost from the Silver Age Hulk was that very personal story of redemption. The Hulk suffered from our childlike fascination with his naivety, but I don't think it alienates kids to read about a Hulk who angrily refuses to bow down to evil men (Tyrannus), since the Hulk at that point is controlled by Banner's morals and ethics.

The only time the Hulk has a momentary slip of Banner's control resulted in one of the greatest pages of all time:

I think what I responded to about this Hulk was how forthright he is: this is the Randian Hulk, "A is A", black and white. And in a lot of ways, kids have that view. You're either a "bad guy" or a "good guy." You're not "Ambiguous Guy." Betty Ross and Rick Jones are barometers of the Hulk's ethics/morals; which made for an interesting dynamic. Believe or not, a team dynamic.

If you can dig it, the Kirby Banner-Hulk, Betty and Rick could be like a twisted take on "Jonny Quest." Only instead of Race Bannon you have King Kong. Going on missions, Cave Carsen style.

Such a "team" would give the name "Hulkbusters" a whole new and cool meaning!



Edited by Chad Carter on 30 March 2011 at 9:04pm
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Jeff Fettes
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Posted: 01 April 2011 at 7:33am | IP Logged | 3  

I liked JB's comment that the new Hulk would be "60% hero, 40% bad
guy". That's the part of the character that appealed to me originally.
He was so unpredictable and there was no telling what would happen
when Banner became the Hulk. We all are capable of losing our
temper and saying or doing things we later regret. In my mind, that's
the "everyman" aspect of the character.    
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James Lansberry
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Posted: 01 April 2011 at 8:26am | IP Logged | 4  

If I had the cash, I'd ask to have a commission done of the Metal Master and adamantium Hulk statue battling the "new" Hulk that was supposed to be JB's Incredible Hulk #321.
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Stephen Robinson
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Posted: 01 April 2011 at 10:19am | IP Logged | 5  

I liked JB's comment that the new Hulk would be "60% hero, 40% bad
guy". That's the part of the character that appealed to me originally.
He was so unpredictable and there was no telling what would happen
when Banner became the Hulk. We all are capable of losing our
temper and saying or doing things we later regret. In my mind, that's
the "everyman" aspect of the character.   
**********

SER: It's interesting to me how superficially similar the proposed "new" Hulk is to the "Gray Hulk" we see in 331 - 376. I say "superficial" in that PAD played up the childhood abuse aspect and gave us a mentally unbalanced Bruce Banner. From what the interviews, it seemed that JB was going to stick with allegory -- Bruce is cold and robotic not because he has a personality disorder and can't express emotion but because the Hulk has become the physical manifestation of his emotions -- for good or for ill.

I did like that the Gray Hulk was "60 percent good guy" and "40 percent bad guy." I am always disappointed with the shift the series made with the "merged" Hulk -- Hulk as leader of a group. Hulk indistinguishable from Banner. Come one -- Bruce Banner turns into the Hulk. Removing that aspect is like having Superman without Clark Kent.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 01 April 2011 at 10:53am | IP Logged | 6  

It's interesting to me how superficially similar the proposed "new" Hulk is to the "Gray Hulk" we see in 331 - 376. I say "superficial" in that PAD played up the childhood abuse aspect and gave us a mentally unbalanced Bruce Banner.

++++++++

It's important to note that, while David's early Gray Hulk does indeed superficially resemble the original, he really is quite different. He talks like the "thug"/angry Banner Hulk, and yet is clearly not Banner "in control". He's also much smarter than the original, more brutish version--to the point where he became a wisecracking mob enforcer.

And, of course, this particular Gray version was eventually revealed to represent all of Banner's repressed teenage feelings--his crude, sexual, immature side.

JB's proposed version stuck with the original concept--the Hulk is Banner's dark side made flesh. David's gradually replaced that core concept with the MPD angle, and made Banner into a nutjob, rather than a (genius) everyman whose repressed negative emotions found a voice through the Hulk. And I think that the Hulk has never recovered from that fundamental change, because there's been no consistency in the character for over 20 years.

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Stephen Robinson
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Posted: 01 April 2011 at 1:33pm | IP Logged | 7  

It's important to note that, while David's early Gray Hulk does indeed superficially resemble the original, he really is quite different. He talks like the "thug"/angry Banner Hulk, and yet is clearly not Banner "in control". He's also much smarter than the original, more brutish version--to the point where he became a wisecracking mob enforcer.

*************

SER: I suppose I never saw "Mr. Fixit" as being that much smarter than the brutish Hulk. He does seem to speak like the Hulk in the scan that Chad posted above.

That aside, this does raise the issue of whether a "smart" Hulk works at all. There is the argument that Marvel already had a "smart" monster (The Thing). 

And just from a strictly commercial perspective, the Frankenstein monster -- Karloff version rather than the articulate version in the novel -- is far more popular -- especially with kids -- than Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Banner as Frankenstein and the Hulk as his creation are just more relatable than Banner as Jekyll and the Hulk as Hyde.

As you point out, Banner is basically certifiable by the middle of PAD's run. He has not been a likable hero for almost 20 years, which is a shame. Especially since I grew up on the Bill Bixby Banner, who defined the gentle but strong-willed hero.

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 01 April 2011 at 1:52pm | IP Logged | 8  

I suppose I never saw "Mr. Fixit" as being that much smarter than the brutish Hulk. He does seem to speak like the Hulk in the scan that Chad posted above.
+++++++++++

Since he wore fancy clothes, banged hot chicks, and made the occasional pop culture or literary reference, I'd say he was smarter!

Aside from the Banner-not-quite-in-control version, a smart Hulk doesn't work for me. Even the earliest version, while using personal pronouns, was still brutal and savage.

For me, since the Hulk represents anger, and anger is not a rational emotion, the Hulk really should be a creature of instinct and irrationality. An angry smart guy doesn't fit that bill. David's Gray Hulk is more of a sinister, grumpy human than a monster driven by rage.

And the savage Hulk works best for me when treated as a creature of rage rather than  a child-like moron. Sure, he has child-like qualities, but making him flat-out stupid (instead of a scary, monster with a hair-trigger) is going too far in that direction.

Banner, of course, should be the hero of the book--trying to control the monster within him, and working for the betterment of mankind. On the flipside, the Hulk is a menace, but still manages to lash out at (mostly) the right targets, since he's a dark reflection of Banner.

What David's run did was turn Banner the everyman into Banner the nutjob, and the Hulk from a mutant creature of rage into one of that nutjob's many personalities.

In the first version, Banner is a character we can relate to. He's a normal man who, through extraordinary circumstances, has had his inner rage released into the world. Essentially, the gamma rays altered his body in such a way as to distort his brain structure/chemistry when he's the Hulk, allowing his inner rage to be given its own life.

The second version turned the Hulk into a symptom of a pre-existing mental problem, one which happened to get unleashed by the gamma rays. So, the transformation serves as a stressor of sorts that causes the switch from one personality to another.



Edited by Greg Kirkman on 01 April 2011 at 1:53pm
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James Lansberry
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Posted: 01 April 2011 at 2:18pm | IP Logged | 9  

JB's proposed version stuck with the original concept--the Hulk is Banner's dark side made flesh. David's gradually replaced that core concept with the MPD angle, and made Banner into a nutjob, rather than a (genius) everyman whose repressed negative emotions found a voice through the Hulk. And I think that the Hulk has never recovered from that fundamental change, because there's been no consistency in the character for over 20 years.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I've never been a big fan of the whole MPD concept.  Yeah, it was nice in IH #312 to get a backstory into Banner's childhood, but I liked the concept of keeping the gamma radiation in focus as to how intelligent/powerful/color the Hulk would be
As explained in IH #326 when Banner figured out why Rick Jones had become a Hulk:
"The Nutrient Bath was meant to stabilize my molecular cohesion with the Hulk.  The action of the bath, coupled with the gamma radiation emitted by my body, affected you the way the original gamma blast affected me!  Your body absorbed a portion of the radiation from mine -- which explains why I reverted to the Hulk's original form!"
In other words, the less gamma, we'd get a  "lesser" Hulk (gray in color).  The more gamma, the more evolved the Hulk would become.
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Garry Porter II
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Posted: 01 April 2011 at 6:05pm | IP Logged | 10  

though some stories were ok, i never really got into the peter david hulk era.
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Ray Brady
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Posted: 01 April 2011 at 6:16pm | IP Logged | 11  

"The only time I really ever liked the Hulk was when JB was doing it."
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I can say the same thing about the Hulk, She-Hulk, Namor, Wonder Woman, Superman, the Doom Patrol, the New Gods... and the list goes on.

Mr. Byrne has an uncanny ability to ferret out the characters I care about the least, and an uncannier ability to get me interested in them.
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Phil Frances
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Posted: 01 April 2011 at 6:59pm | IP Logged | 12  

Mr. Byrne has an uncanny ability to ferret out the characters I care about the least, and an uncannier ability to get me interested in them.
__________________________________________________

Very much agree, although I'd broaden that out to ' ferret out the essence ' of any character, and then tell clever, superb stories building on the ideas that were there all along. A very clever interpreter of what works, and what makes a good story.

ie - not the modern way.

( I was going to expand there, but I realised I'd have to blank out so many expletives, it would render my comment on the current state of comics virtually unreadable ... )




Edited by Phil Frances on 01 April 2011 at 7:00pm
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