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Jon Stafford Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 December 2010 Posts: 843
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Posted: 22 March 2011 at 7:55am | IP Logged | 1
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From the geeky questions department:
One of the recurring themes in the presentation of Nightcrawler's powers is that he cannot teleport into a location he cannot see due to the risk of materializing inside a solid object. This is repeated again and again in X-Men, and is confirmed by the OHOTMU. But does it make sense?
According to his online Marvel Universe entry, Nightcrawler teleport s by "opening a portal into another dimension, travelling through it via an unconscious direction-finding sense, and returning to his own dimension." So if he's opening a portal and moving through it, where's the risk of materializing inside a solid object? If you opened a door with a solid brick wall on the other side, you simply would not be able to go through. There would be no danger of you somehow "merging" with the wall. It seems to me that Nightcrawler's powers should work the same way. If he tried to teleport to a location within solid rock, for example, he should simply be unable to exit his pocket dimension.
It has also been shown that Nightcrawler displaces gases and liquids when he teleports, enabling him to "land" in water, for example, without harm. So presumably he simply pushes anything of lesser density than himself out of the way. If that's the case, then if he were to teleport to a location where someone happened to be standing, why wouldn't he simply push that person out of the way or himself be pushed aside, depending on who was heavier?
Finally, Nightcrawler is frequently shown teleporting around the X-Men's mansion and other "interior" locations. This would seem to fly in the face of the limitation about seeing where he's going. How can he know that there won't be a person standing right where he plans to materialize? Or do the X-Men assign certain areas of the house as Nightcrawler's "landing spots" and always keep them clear?
Edited by Jon Stafford on 22 March 2011 at 8:28am
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133508
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Posted: 22 March 2011 at 8:24am | IP Logged | 2
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Try opening that door with your eyes closed.When/If he teleports to a space he cannot see, that is essentially what Kurt is doing.
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Jon Stafford Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 December 2010 Posts: 843
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Posted: 22 March 2011 at 8:27am | IP Logged | 3
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Hmm. Okay, but still in that case wouldn't he just bump into the solid mass as he tries to exit the pocket dimension?
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Matt Hawes Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 16505
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Posted: 22 March 2011 at 8:33am | IP Logged | 4
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Ugh. I hate explaining powers like teleportation for fantasy characters. I never saw Nightcrawler as going to another dimension and appearing back in ours, I saw him as being there, and then "poof"... now he is here! Simple enough, no need to elaborate.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133508
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Posted: 22 March 2011 at 8:47am | IP Logged | 5
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OHOTMU had an unfortunate tendency to invoke parallel dimensions to explain things, in large part due to Mark Gruenwald's fascination with parallel dimensions! Remember when Cyclops' was channeling energy from a parallel dimension, despite the fact that the way his power worked had been clearly explained years before in a backup feature in X-MEN? Not "realistic" enough for Mark (who also thought a hundred foot long telepathic dragon was more "realistic" than a hundred foot long talking dragon!).Even if we invoke parallel dimensions to explain how Nightcrawler's teleportation works, however, it should not be seen as him "moving" in a physical sense. He is not "stepping thru a door" or sliding down a chute. As Matt notes, Kurt is HERE, and then he's THERE. The parallel dimension has "folded" space -- otherwise, his teleportation would not be instantaneous, as it has been so often shown to be. If he teleported a mile thru that parallel dimension, and actual movement was involved, it would take him as long to travel that mile as it would in real space. And if that is "instantaneous", then we have changed Kurt's power from true teleportation to something more akin to super speed. (How unhip is my spellchecker? It does not recognize "teleportation"!)
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Garry Porter II Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 February 2011 Posts: 327
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Posted: 22 March 2011 at 8:47am | IP Logged | 6
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i guess to explain nightcrawler's powers is to explain teleportation in a way. and that could be in the avenue of a little too much reasoning.
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Matt Hawes Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 16505
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Posted: 22 March 2011 at 9:06am | IP Logged | 7
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John Byrne wrote:
...(How unhip is my spellchecker? It does not recognize "teleportation"!... |
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Mine, neither!
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Wayde Murray Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 October 2005 Location: Canada Posts: 3115
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Posted: 22 March 2011 at 9:10am | IP Logged | 8
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I figured Nightcrawler was a man-sized example of the tunnel-diode effect. As Matt says, he's here, now he's there, and he doesn't exist in the space in between. Then it got explained. First he was "riding on magnetic lines of force" or somesuch, which allowed Magneto to know ahead of time exactly where he would appear, which means Magneto can read lines of force and respond to changes in them at the speed of light. Phooey. Then he was unconsciously traveling through another dimension. Double phooey. Writers often use the "unable to transport into solid objects" line when warning of the dangers of teleportation. Star Trek often did, and Nightcrawler did as well. Liquids and solids each have molecules that are in direct contact with each other. Gases are mostly empty space. Solids and liquids contain no empty space at all between the outer electron shells of neighboring atoms. Teleporting into water should be no different than teleporting into concrete. The bit about "lower density" makes no sense unless every atom of both Nightcrawler and the substance into which he's teleporting "know" the overall density of the Nightcrawler-shaped volume they share with other, dissimilar atoms. Do they take a vote? I liked the way TOS handled teleportation. They could do it because it worked. They never bothered to explain it to each other, because they all knew that it worked. We knew it worked because we watched it work. Now on with the story. TNG decided to tell stories ABOUT teleporting. I think that was a mistake.
Edited by Wayde Murray on 22 March 2011 at 9:14am
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133508
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Posted: 22 March 2011 at 9:29am | IP Logged | 9
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Liquids and solids each have molecules that are in direct contact with each other. Gases are mostly empty space. Solids and liquids contain no empty space at all between the outer electron shells of neighboring atoms.•• This is very much at odds with what I have read. Everywhere that I have seen any sort of description, the space between atoms has been given as greater, proportionately, than the space between galaxies. And the atoms themselves are mostly (very much mostly!) empty space. (Consider the old analogy that in an atom enlarged to the size of a football stadium, the nucleus would be the size of a common housefly!) Kitty Pryde's power works (when properly portrayed, as opposed to, say, how it is shown in the movies) by diminishing the attraction between atoms such that hers can pass freely between those of whatever she moves thru -- the distances between the atoms being so great there is no danger of one atom bumping into another. It would not be IMPOSSIBLE for one object to be materialized inside another -- there is plenty of room for all those atoms! -- but it would almost certainly be fatal. And the discrete electric fields might not get along all that well, either!
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Wayde Murray Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 October 2005 Location: Canada Posts: 3115
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Posted: 22 March 2011 at 9:48am | IP Logged | 10
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It's my understanding that solids have their constituent atoms locked in place and that liquids have atoms that "slide" over each other, which also indicates physical contact. Whatever "contact" means on that scale. Atoms of gases bounce off each other randomly, because they are separated by some relatively great amount of empty space. From this link, the first paragraph defines atomic radii: We can estimate the size of an atom, however, by assuming that the radius of an atom is half the distance between adjacent atoms in a solid. That reads to me that the atoms are touching each other. The force fields generated by the outermost electron shells of neighboring atoms may keep them from direct contact, but those fields "fill in the holes" so to speak, and would prevent matter (or other force fields) from appearing within them. Kitty negates the force fields and slides "between them", but that's no different than Kirk beaming through a ceiling to appear inside your living room. What would happen to Kitty if she turned her power off while submerged?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133508
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Posted: 22 March 2011 at 9:59am | IP Logged | 11
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From this link, the first paragraph defines atomic radii: We can estimate the size of an atom, however, by assuming that the radius of an atom is half the distance between adjacent atoms in a solid.That reads to me that the atoms are touching each other. •• Yikes! No!! The radius of a circle is half its diameter. If the radius of an atom is half the distance between adjacent atoms, then that distance would be equal to the diameter of the atoms. Considerably less than the proportionate distance between galaxies, but still far from "touching". Atoms DO "touch" in some solids -- neutronium for instance. But that's not normal matter, where the different degrees of "solidity" are the result of different strengths in the attraction between the atoms.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133508
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Posted: 22 March 2011 at 10:03am | IP Logged | 12
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What would happen to Kitty if she turned her power off while submerged?•• In principle, that is what she did to the Juggernaut in X-3. This resulted in him becoming trapped in the floor into which she had pulled him down -- tho only temporarily, since in the movies her power is portrayed as if the atoms flow around her. So Juggernaut simply flexed and burst free, as Superman would if buried in concrete. Properly portrayed, however, Juggernaut should have become "part" of the floor, his atoms intermingled with those of the cement. Thus he would have been permanently trapped -- and most likely dead.
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