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Topic: Here’s why Marvel won’t listen to us (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 01 November 2010 at 8:23am | IP Logged | 1  

I often wish comics could return to what they were when I was a kid: fun, accessible, creative work produced by folk who obviously loved what they were doing!

Bu today's comics are a completely different beast....

••

Sure -- but is that the NATURAL STATE of the form? Can we look at the history of American comic books over, say, the past thirty years and honestly say they have evolved in a logical manner?

Certainly the various forms they have taken have been deliberate and predictable, but have they really made sense? Comics have been ruled for decades now by diminished expectations running in tandem with a constant quest for easy fixes. Breevort's comments are totally symptomatic of this.

Is it too late to turn things around? Probably, given the people who would be in charge of doing so. But that doesn't mean the conditions as we find them are the only conditions that could have come to pass.

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Brian Joseph Mayer
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Posted: 01 November 2010 at 10:25am | IP Logged | 2  

"Yet, when, a while back, we got to talking on this board about the likelihood of my taking on an X-MEN FOREVER kind of book, as Chris had just started at the time, and we even kicked around a title, X-MEN EVERMORE, and I even went so far as to say it sounded like it could be a fun project and something I would be actually interested in doing, Tom Breevort responded to a Forum member's email about this by saying it was up to me to pick up the phone and call him, to show I was "serious"."

In fairness, as someone who frequently hires contractors, if someone had been very public for the better part of a decade that they did not like the way my organization did business and would not want to work for my organization, one blink of a side note would not really make me think they had really changed their mind. I am not likely to chase someone down who is clearly against how we do things when I have a line of individuals who do want to work with us. Its too bad too because I know some great people in my field, but I can't aford the time because they have made it clear over the years that it would be a waste of breath due to politics.

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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132628
Posted: 01 November 2010 at 10:31am | IP Logged | 3  

"Yet, when, a while back, we got to talking on this board about the likelihood of my taking on an X-MEN FOREVER kind of book, as Chris had just started at the time, and we even kicked around a title, X-MEN EVERMORE, and I even went so far as to say it sounded like it could be a fun project and something I would be actually interested in doing, Tom Breevort responded to a Forum member's email about this by saying it was up to me to pick up the phone and call him, to show I was "serious"."

In fairness, as someone who frequently hires contractors, if someone had been very public for the better part of a decade that they did not like the way my organization did business and would not want to work for my organization, one blink of a side note would not really make me think they had really changed their mind. I am not likely to chase someone down who is clearly against how we do things when I have a line of individuals who do want to work with us. Its too bad too because I know some great people in my field, but I can't aford the time because they have made it clear over the years that it would be a waste of breath due to politics.

••

Thanks for accidentally underscoring another flaw in this whole process: that it had become about PERSONALITIES.

Comics used to be about hiring the best people to do the job. That was an editor's only interest. And when someone expressed an interest in doing a job, an editor would immediately make appropriate enquiries, not worry about whether the person involved was his buddy.

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Rick Whiting
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Posted: 01 November 2010 at 11:07am | IP Logged | 4  

Comics used to be about hiring the best people to do the job. That was an editor's only interest. And when someone expressed an interest in doing a job, an editor would immediately make appropriate enquiries, not worry about whether the person involved was his buddy.

_____________________________________________

This seems to be one of the major problems at the Big 2. One of the requirements that determines whether or not a creator gets hired at the Big 2, is if said creator are friendly or on good terms with certain editors. For example, it is rumored (IIRC, the rumor came from Brevoort himself) that Jim Starlin will never get work from Marvel as long as QAuesada is EIC until Starlin apologizes to Quesada. Jim Shooter has also publicly stated that he was denied work at DC because certain staffers had a grudge against him from his days as EIC of Marvel.

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Stephen Robinson
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Posted: 01 November 2010 at 11:19am | IP Logged | 5  

There is nothing "easy" about producing books on schedule, on a monthly basis, making them easily accessible to all ages, and to new readers.

**********
SER: I've noticed that instead of trying these things, the PTB seem intent on disputing them: "People don't expect the books to be on schedule. We're growing roses. Kids never read comics. We need to reach our known fan base, not mythical new readers" and so on.

It's sort of like an abusive relationship. "I want you to treat me with respect!" "You're no good! No one will ever treat you with respect. This is the best you'll ever get."

I think you only need to take enough classes to get the "M" in an MBA to take a long, hard look at when your organization was successful and when it wasn't. At the peak of comics' popularity, the books were on time, as scheduled, and accessible to all readers. It's the lingering accessibility that results in the box office for THE DARK KNIGHT and IRON MAN. How many kids saw those films? Repeatedly? And how many of them read comics?

Giving up on the all-ages audience is suicide. Even THE NEW YORKER tries to reach people like me -- not just professors at Harvard.

Online also isn't a cure-all if the product offered is so inaccessible.

A part of me wishes I had the capital to take the Breveroot Challenge: Hire the people they either won't hire or have chased away and have them create comics as they should be done and have been done successfully in the past.
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Robert White
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Posted: 01 November 2010 at 11:24am | IP Logged | 6  

Interesting Jim Starlin comment:

"I have to admit I miss the free flow of those old days.
When I started in this business I could talk to an editor
(at one of the Big Two companies) about a project in the
afternoon and start working on it that night. Now there
are so many levels you have to go through before anything
is approved that you might have to wait many months
before you can get started. You can easily lose interest
in a project during this wait."

orginal article

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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 01 November 2010 at 11:36am | IP Logged | 7  

"I have to admit I miss the free flow of those old days. When I started in this business I could talk to an editor (at one of the Big Two companies) about a project in the afternoon and start working on it that night. Now there are so many levels you have to go through before anything is approved that you might have to wait many months before you can get started. You can easily lose interest in a project during this wait."

••

A reality behind all this lies in the fact that hardly anyone below the bean counters and suits have any real power any more. Gone are the days when an editor could greenlight a project. Now, the best s/he can do is set the ball rolling.

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Joseph Gauthier
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Posted: 01 November 2010 at 12:15pm | IP Logged | 8  

Sounds like the comic book business could use a Tea Party equivalent ;)

Dissatisfaction with over regulation...check!  Dissatisfaction with a lurch away from founding principles...check!  Dissatisfaction with an arrogant, unresponsive body...check!

But here's the real reason Marvel won't listen to us: many of us have branded ourselves as unlikely customers; we've publicly declared, myself included, our divorce (for whatever reason) from comic book purchasing.  Just like in politics, all the protest in the world amounts to less than nothing if politicians don't believe it will translate into votes.
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Brad Krawchuk
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Posted: 01 November 2010 at 1:02pm | IP Logged | 9  

Just like in politics, all the protest in the world amounts to less than nothing if politicians don't believe it will translate into votes. 

---

Ah! But in this case, it DOES translate into votes. I'm not buying Marvel Comics, I cut all my "monthly" DC books, and I've been taking a serious look at my trade/HC pull list and seeing what I really enjoy, what's on the bubble, and what I stopped enjoying a while ago and left on the bubble too long. 

DC and Marvel are BOTH making a LOT less money from ME. My vote counts. 
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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

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Posts: 132628
Posted: 01 November 2010 at 1:18pm | IP Logged | 10  

Back in the day, it used to be held that one letter represented some 16.000 readers. Surely there must be some internet equivalent. Even a small number of people saying they are walking away could potentially represent a substantial loss in revenues.
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Dan Avenell
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Posted: 01 November 2010 at 1:32pm | IP Logged | 11  

Most people who walk away from an interest won't bother to register why or complain, they just... walk away. The sales show that the product is no longer as popular (as in JB's days at Marvel, wow what a coincidence), and Brevoort tacitly admits it could do with fixing. It's a measure of the love of the medium that the people here who have lost interest are often motivated by the idea that comics need to serve not them, but the kids who could be enjoying Marvel comics as they once were and should be again.


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Joseph Gauthier
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Posted: 01 November 2010 at 1:37pm | IP Logged | 12  

JB, many of us have already walked away from comics, and Marvel knows it because we constantly remind them online.  I'm sure to their minds, we represent a lost cause and our complaints probably instill in them an attitude of: Whatever [they] may be saying [online], I doubt that [they are] genuinely serious about wanting to [read Marvel comics] any time soon.

It seems to me that a message of we are potential readers who will return to reading Marvel comics if... would represent a far more powerful message; though a lot more difficult to pull off. 
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