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Robert Bradley
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Posted: 11 January 2010 at 11:40pm | IP Logged | 1  

If Lee was comfortable at the time it was because he was writing most of the Marvel line, editing it and making speaking appearances.  But I doubt he was really making good money until the company was sold and he became publisher.

Kirby, of course, was by a page rate for his work, just like all the other artists (with the possible exception of Romita, when he landed the job of Art Director later on.


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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Posted: 12 January 2010 at 12:02am | IP Logged | 2  

At the beginning of the "Marvel Era", Stan Lee's "financial security" or "job security" wasn't worth anything, as the company was failing. This is a bit of history that both Kirby and Lee agreed on, that as far as they knew, if Fantastic Four wasn't a success, the company was folding. 

Once the comics started selling, both Lee and Kirby had de-facto job security. Lee had it formally, but Kirby was handed more books to draw than any written contract could possibly have guaranteed him ( No lawyer would allow an editor to give an employee a contract guaranteeing them 400+ percent employment. And Kirby was doing more than 4 books a month at his peak).

At the point towards the end of the 60s that Lee finally managed to get authorization for creating an Art Director position for Kirby (something he had pushed for for several years, apparently), that if history is any judge, would have given him financial security for the rest of his life, Kirby turned it down.  

John Romita SR, who finally ended up in that position, didn't do so badly by it, did he?

So throughout his career at Marvel, Kirby did have financial security, just not on paper.  At the point when he himself wanted to step back a bit and do more plotting and development of stuff for other artists (which was the original plan for New Gods, that some of the series would be drawn by others),  he was given the opportunity to do just that as Art Director at Marvel.

And then he turned it down.

A lot of Kirby's gripes about getting less than Lee, less credit, less respect, less money, tie back to that choice. Now, as I understand it there were family health reasons why they wanted to move to California, but it still remains that he was given opportunities at Marvel that could have remedied all the problems with lack of credit or financial rewards.

Before getting too far into accusing Marvel of "using" Kirby and then "throwing him away", we should remember that he walked away when they offered him everything he said he wanted.

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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 12 January 2010 at 1:00am | IP Logged | 3  

Kirby's "walkaway" also had some other elements in the mix.

It's clear Kirby wasn't keen on all the credit being directed Stan Lee's way for Marvel's success. I don't blame Lee for that as much as the media. Lee was a more engaging character and certainly made better news copy. To the civilians, Stan Lee was Marvel, and you'll still see him referred to as a "cartoonist" to this day in poorly researched articles.

There also appeared to be some bad blood between Kirby and Martin Goodman at the end, which probably had started back in the 1940s and festered. (Remember, Kirby didn't want to go back to Martin's shop in 1958, but he'd run out of options.) Of course, there was the Captain America / Joe Simon business, where Kirby was promised an equal amount to what Joe would get in settlement if he sided with Marvel (and, of course, Kirby got a fraction of what Joe received). There's also the story recounted by Lee that Goodman saw they were paying Kirby a lot of money -- because Kirby was producing so much product -- and pennywise Marty decided the best solution would be to cut Kirby's page rate.

The sale of Marvel to Perfect Film and Chemical in 1968 was likely the beginning of the end. Whether or not the alleged profit sharing promises made to Kirby were not kept, the new management from PFC was under the impression that Stan Lee was the creative force in residence, surrounded by a squad of art robots who would draw his visions. Again, more civilians who didn't know what they had in Kirby.

Kirby's departure from Marvel in 1970 brings Poe to mind: "The thousand injuries of Fortunato I had borne as I best could, but when he ventured upon insult I vowed revenge."
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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 12 January 2010 at 1:36am | IP Logged | 4  

Knut, what is your source for the story that Kirby was offered an art director position and turned it down?  I've never heard that before.  I can recall interviews where Stan has said that if Kirby had stayed at Marvel he would have eventually gotten him a staff position, but I've never read anywhere that Kirby was offered the art director position and declined it.  There was no art director besides Stan himself until the restructuring of 1972, when Frank Giacoia was hired as "assistant art director."  When Giacoia didn't work out in the job and was removed, Romita was hired as art director without the "assistant" designation, and Stan gave up the title. 
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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 12 January 2010 at 1:54am | IP Logged | 5  

 Robert Bradley wrote:
If Lee was comfortable at the time it was because he was writing mostof the Marvel line, editing it and making speaking appearances.  But Idoubt he was really making good money until the company was sold and hebecame publisher.


A big issue for Kirby (as well as Ditko and Wood) was that under the Marvel Method he was expected to co-write the books but was only paid for drawing them.  Meanwhile Stan got all the writing money though he was only co-plotter and dialogue writer (and as the decade progressed, he sometimes was not even co-plotter). 

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Arc Carlton
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Posted: 12 January 2010 at 12:16pm | IP Logged | 6  

Kirby's departure from Marvel in 1970 brings Poe to mind: "The thousand injuries of Fortunato I had borne as I best could, but when he ventured upon insult I vowed revenge."
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That's a good Poe poem .
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David Miller
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Posted: 12 January 2010 at 12:54pm | IP Logged | 7  

As a side note to all of this, the 1978 Silver Surfer graphic novel is copyrighted to Stan Lee and Jack Kirby.  I wonder if that's been a factor in keeping the book out of print all these years?
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John Byrne
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Posted: 12 January 2010 at 1:52pm | IP Logged | 8  

A big issue for Kirby (as well as Ditko and Wood) was that under the Marvel Method he was expected to co-write the books but was only paid for drawing them. Meanwhile Stan got all the writing money though he was only co-plotter and dialogue writer (and as the decade progressed, he sometimes was not even co-plotter).

••

Which is how it worked for everybody, unless writers and artists worked out special deals between themselves. I did considerably more than just drawing on UNCANNY X-MEN, but drawing was all I got paid for. Since I got paid more than twice as much as Chris, that didn't seem such a big deal.

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John Peter Britton
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Posted: 12 January 2010 at 1:54pm | IP Logged | 9  

You might have something there David!
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John Byrne
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Posted: 12 January 2010 at 1:55pm | IP Logged | 10  

"Like so many artists in the fledgling comic book industry of the late 1950's/early 1960's…"

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An industry that has been around for 20 or 30 years is considered "fledgling"?

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Paul Greer
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Posted: 12 January 2010 at 2:18pm | IP Logged | 11  

My question is, for those who understand the law. What do the Kirby heirs have to prove and what is Marvel required to prove in regards to this? Who is required to prove their case? Those that are suing or the defendants?   

 

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John Byrne
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Posted: 12 January 2010 at 3:18pm | IP Logged | 12  

The Kirby heirs have picked themselves a particularly difficult row to hoe. Basically, they have to show that Kirby's work at Marvel was not understood to be work-made-for-hire. And since, as I have previously mentioned, Kirby ran his own company by the same rules under which he worked at Marvel, it is not a point that can be made, really.

To paraphrase my own previous comment, this comes down to Kirby (at one time) and his heirs (presently) saying "You mean the rules that apply to everybody else (and that I applied to my employees) apply to ME?"

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